Iron Palm

[k gledhill]

Just fyi, I trained to simply strike wall mounted bags with open hands . it gives a deep shocking force similar to hitting someone with a phone book, no surface marks like a knuckle strike.

Vertical palm spreads the elbow off the line as Tan sao , used for inside to outside clearing
anything relative to our attacking line.

Horizontal / Side palm, tucks the elbow in as Jum sao used to change attack angles using the elbows acute inward position to manipulate our arms to strike while removing the incoming attack in one action.... we used to strike small hanging bags full of rocks

The tan and sidepalm positions in the dummy is this thinking not an attack low to ribs while blocking with a tan, rather it is an alignment of angles and elbows working to face
at angles equally for either to strike , not both as an application...tan elbow in to move out while striking in, coupled with side palm aka elbow inwards aka jum sao , to cover the inside strike line . with either following the other in a fight it only matters to you and the reality you face that dictates which strike leads, or parry etc...backing up the angling training we do in freefighting, seung ma toi ma etc...

I hit guys in fights with palm strikes to heads , if they cam in head down in a low charge I would 'slap' the top of the head sharply as possible . It was effective for delivering stunning shots that might otherwise break a knuckle. As we fight bare handed so we need options to strike while adopting elbow angles with functioning open hand strikes /grabs.
Co-ordinated strike n grab can wrench a neck quickly , dislocate a jaw, fracture facial bones ...
And all the above is with just hitting a wall bag , no Iron palm video or 'course' to pay for the beach house

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, I think I pretty much agree with everything you have said here. I personally do not see any reason to abuse ones hands to make them harder, and just normal hand training can do that pretty well. I did train my hands, but didn't use any Iron Palm training as such. I did use hard surfaces and sand though. All this worked to make my hands hold form during a strike. Giving them greater efficiency.
When I was a younger man I worked day jobs as a printer, and I had a young co worker that invited me to attend his Karate school as he tested for his brown belt in TKD. I had followed his training some and we were friends, so I went with him. While there he went through all the drills and forms and eventually was upgraded to his brown belt ranking. Now, while there he introduced me to his Sensei, telling him I was some sort of Kung Fu fighter. This sparked interest and I think some need for showing me that Karate was where it was at. He asked me to give them a demonstration. I explained that we did not do forms like they did, and that I would not make a very good demonstration. He kept insisting and eventually wanted me to show him some moves against one of his intermediate students. I was not liking this at all, and felt as if I were being set upon rather than just being a guest. He explained that his student would use his past boxing skills and I could use my Kung Fu. After a bit of his insisting I agreed, but said I would only block. He understands blocking better so I used that term. He said that I could go full contact if I wanted to. I knew then that he was setting me up. So, we squared off and immediately the young man started trying to tear my head off. I did not strike him once, but managed to ward off all his attacks quite readily. He was fast and strong, and I was afraid that he would connect and ruin my weekend. So I was a bit brisk in my moves. After a few minutes he stopped and went to the side of the mat. He was done, and I was glad of it too. It could have turned ugly. After a while we left and several days later my friend informed me that the young boxer had gone to his doctor and found that both his forearms had fractures in the bones. He told his Sensei that the reason he stopped was that it was hurting his arms.
I have also found that the use of the slap hand is far more effective in some cases than a fist. Especially on hard surfaces like the skull. A hard slap downward at the solar plexus will make a big man lose control of his bodily functions, and a hard slap to the head can knock you out. Striking a head with your fist can injure you as well, and the injury to him is more localized with way less referal shock.
I also use pressure point striking when I can get away with it. Not anything like using acupuncture points and Dim Mak or anything, but soft spots and areas that have exposed nerve clusters, joint hinges, and the such. Also a lot of pushing and pulling to put a fellow off balance so I could get in a few shots at him before he could recover. Now I am rambling.

[SAAMAG]

PS. And you can Stop attempting to derail every thread you happen to find me posting in. I have so far given you more attention than you deserve!

Actually...you only came in to derail the thread based on T's statements. YOU'RE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD WAS A DERAILMENT...whereas everyone else's discussed the topic at hand. In fact...my first post in the thread had no relevance to you whatsoever.

So you're telling me that I derail threads?! That actually made me laugh out loud! But...I see you're improving your vocabulary with the help of CJ with the word "delrailment" in the other thread! Good job. At least you're learning something.

Now you're going to cut this into 30 pieces and try to make a preschool comeback on each one...because you thrive for the attention...thereby derailing the thread even more. Let's see if you're man enough to let this be...though I doubt it.

[k gledhill]

K, I think I pretty much agree with everything you have said here. I personally do not see any reason to abuse ones hands to make them harder, and just normal hand training can do that pretty well. I did train my hands, but didn't use any Iron Palm training as such. I did use hard surfaces and sand though. All this worked to make my hands hold form during a strike. Giving them greater efficiency.
When I was a younger man I worked day jobs as a printer, and I had a young co worker that invited me to attend his Karate school as he tested for his brown belt in TKD. I had followed his training some and we were friends, so I went with him. While there he went through all the drills and forms and eventually was upgraded to his brown belt ranking. Now, while there he introduced me to his Sensei, telling him I was some sort of Kung Fu fighter. This sparked interest and I think some need for showing me that Karate was where it was at. He asked me to give them a demonstration. I explained that we did not do forms like they did, and that I would not make a very good demonstration. He kept insisting and eventually wanted me to show him some moves against one of his intermediate students. I was not liking this at all, and felt as if I were being set upon rather than just being a guest. He explained that his student would use his past boxing skills and I could use my Kung Fu. After a bit of his insisting I agreed, but said I would only block. He understands blocking better so I used that term. He said that I could go full contact if I wanted to. I knew then that he was setting me up. So, we squared off and immediately the young man started trying to tear my head off. I did not strike him once, but managed to ward off all his attacks quite readily. He was fast and strong, and I was afraid that he would connect and ruin my weekend. So I was a bit brisk in my moves. After a few minutes he stopped and went to the side of the mat. He was done, and I was glad of it too. It could have turned ugly. After a while we left and several days later my friend informed me that the young boxer had gone to his doctor and found that both his forearms had fractures in the bones. He told his Sensei that the reason he stopped was that it was hurting his arms.
I have also found that the use of the slap hand is far more effective in some cases than a fist. Especially on hard surfaces like the skull. A hard slap downward at the solar plexus will make a big man lose control of his bodily functions, and a hard slap to the head can knock you out. Striking a head with your fist can injure you as well, and the injury to him is more localized with way less referal shock.
I also use pressure point striking when I can get away with it. Not anything like using acupuncture points and Dim Mak or anything, but soft spots and areas that have exposed nerve clusters, joint hinges, and the such. Also a lot of pushing and pulling to put a fellow off balance so I could get in a few shots at him before he could recover. Now I am rambling.

good stuff, WE did arm conditioning exercises "Gatt sao" [sp?phonetic] to toughen the sensations to arm contact with each other and fighting too.
Palms work well, I remember getting into a situation that ended up in a free fight with 3 security guys [me one of them] against 5-6 ? guys at a bar one night before X-mass many years ago. Long story short, a guy charges me after all hell breaks loose, he comes head down arm extended to do a 'grab and smash' so i make my space then cut into his timing with the 'palm from hell' on top of his head....done fight over , he staggered backwards holding his head in obvious pain unable to defend himself...I could have done anything to finish him but was blindsided by a standing scrum of another fight shoving into me ....

Another Palm memory we adopted 'lao saos' running hand to maintain centerlines whenever outward force was exerted as it came into attack in chi-sao....bad tan pushing out against a elbow in jum....we would release the jum to let the tan slip out [ like letting go suddenly of a tug of war rope] and forming a low palm from the jummed elbow in arm , simply letting the guy impale themselves on the low palm/arm position...many a time we cam close to seeing lunch of the recipient on our feet and surrounding floor areas ...no force on our part jst release and hold positions to a unsuspecting entry...it taught good tan lines to strike along AND tight abdomens ad firm body control

Another time random memories, two students of V Kan were sparring as a demo in Central London theater . {btw first time I met S Kwok }...the 2 guys are sparrig and during the session they used palms for the control of cutting % from knuckles...but as the history of the 2 wasnt known [ didnt like each others sparring controls] it became a little war only nobody but the V Kan students knew this
Sooo it ends up a little harder palms to the face than usual, resulting in one Student needing to go to hospital an hour later , after feeling 'pins and needles' in the left side of his face near his nose [sign of a fractured bone] ....the x-rays showed a fracture to the facial bone that had damaged the nerve running down the side of the nose / cheek area... it was slightly swollen too , but came an hour after the demo.

More raqndom bits...Ive broken bricks with a palm easy just for the 'hmm abrick...?] while running at night for fitness training and seeing a building site ... it takes a few slaps to learn the force and then the mystery is gone , its just a kiln dried piece of material...
And yes bricks dont hit back

palm angles allow the same 'elbow' ideas to work for striking as fists from tan/jum. with
manipulative hand work from the open hands.


ramble over.

back to you

[HardWork8]

Actually...you only came in to derail the thread based on T's statements.

False statement(Yet again!).

My statement that was based on T's statement was to emphasis the existance of Iron Palm as a valid methodology.

YOU'RE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD WAS A DERAILMENT...

False statement!

whereas everyone else's discussed the topic at hand. In fact...my first post in the thread had no relevance to you whatsoever.

I was not talking about your first post!

So you're telling me that I derail threads?! That actually made me laugh out loud!

Glad to cheer you up after what I did to you in the other thread!

But...I see you're improving your vocabulary with the help of CJ with the word "delrailment" in the other thread! Good job. At least you're learning something.

And it ain't kung fu, NOT from you guys. However, don't worry as I will call you up anytime I decide to learn kickboxing or pseudo-kungfu or even the "internal art of Shotokan"LOL!

Now you're going to cut this into 30 pieces and try to make a preschool comeback on each one...

Well, I like to be thorough when I answer posts. I don't pick and chose the points like you and some of your kickboxer colleagues.

because you thrive for the attention...

Yes I do, but not from you. You are the wrong sex, so beat it!

thereby derailing the thread even more.

You mean even more than you did when you criticized my post to Terrence old boy?

Let's see if you're man enough to let this be...though I doubt it.

Lets see if you are man enough to stop "jumping" on me at every opportunity. I mean why don't use all the wasted typing time to practice some REAL kung fu?

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, an example of hard hands. I lived in New Orleans back in the late 60's and I was acquainted with a city detective that did board breaking during demonstrations at the academy, and rather than the little inch thick boards with sticks or penicls between them, he did a 2 x 4 with his palm. No tricks, no cracked boards, just a new 2 x 4 that was braced well. He didn't have a draw back either. He just shot his hand forward from about a foot away and the board smashed in half. Never broke cleanly though, but was held together by splinters.
With my right hand I have to use my palm, if I were to have to fight. I can not make a proper fist. And I feel comfortable in saying that I can hit and cause a lot of damage with a palm strike. It is my strongest hand. I worked in a few large dance halls where fighting was common, and I was one of the bouncers. It was probably not a good idea as I was only 5'4" tall, and when someone can look out across the top of your head they act silly. They do not take into consideration that you might weight 200 pounds and be made up of raw bone and muscle. There was always one of them that would get to thinking they can whip you and start working toward it. I think the most common attack was the attempted sucker punch while you were dealing with someone else. I would always keep a close watch for anyone coming close in from one side. Happened a lot. Then there were the guys that wanted to take you down and tie you up with a wrestling move. I would lower my center of gravity and being usually shorter than the other guy he could not really get down under me. I would give him one of the hardest slaps on top of his head he ever experienced. I have actually knocked a few people out like that. The lick is so loud everyone stops and looks at you. Like a gun shot.
I guess my worst night on the job was when a very large man was beating on a really small guy. I tried to get between them without getting hit in an effort to break it up, but the guy laid in on me. I managed to break his grip on me and reeled him backwards on a table, and when he came up off the table I did the solar plexus slap and when he leaned over toward me I grabbed him by his lips. I had his lips all rolled up in my left hand. He was completely defeated. He was trying to scream but my hand was in his face and preventing him really screaming out. Then his wife ran up behind me and shot me square in my ass. I can not really describe how that felt. It felt as if my butt had exploded. I could not let go of him or he would start up on me again, so I just reached out and popped her right in the tip of the nose. You never seen so much blood in your life as her nose was spewing and my ass was spewing. It totally ruined my weekend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. My wife told me that I had worked my last night as a bouncer. It was a .22, but was loaded with hollow points. They will make a mess of ones rear end. I don't know why, maybe my age now, but in those days I had no fear. Today if I thought I was going to have to fight I think it would scare me to death.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a side note, IP does not (should not) mark or deform your hands very much, if at all.
Mutant hands aside (and there are some out there with mutant hands simple because that may be how their body reacts to the training or it may be that TYPE of training), if you look at the hands of the majority of IP guys, while you well see a difference between their IP{ hand and their non-IP hand, its only really noticable if you look for it.
Forging works that way, if you take care of your hands, the evidence of forging is minimal and that goes for Makiwara work as well.

The difference between an "IP break" and a typical break is that the IP one is done with less force, more like just dropping the hand, maybe with a "slap", rather than drilling the hand full force into the target.

[SAAMAG]

K, an example of hard hands. I lived in New Orleans back in the late 60's and I was acquainted with a city detective that did board breaking during demonstrations at the academy, and rather than the little inch thick boards with sticks or penicls between them, he did a 2 x 4 with his palm. No tricks, no cracked boards, just a new 2 x 4 that was braced well. He didn't have a draw back either. He just shot his hand forward from about a foot away and the board smashed in half. Never broke cleanly though, but was held together by splinters.
With my right hand I have to use my palm, if I were to have to fight. I can not make a proper fist. And I feel comfortable in saying that I can hit and cause a lot of damage with a palm strike. It is my strongest hand. I worked in a few large dance halls where fighting was common, and I was one of the bouncers. It was probably not a good idea as I was only 5'4" tall, and when someone can look out across the top of your head they act silly. They do not take into consideration that you might weight 200 pounds and be made up of raw bone and muscle. There was always one of them that would get to thinking they can whip you and start working toward it. I think the most common attack was the attempted sucker punch while you were dealing with someone else. I would always keep a close watch for anyone coming close in from one side. Happened a lot. Then there were the guys that wanted to take you down and tie you up with a wrestling move. I would lower my center of gravity and being usually shorter than the other guy he could not really get down under me. I would give him one of the hardest slaps on top of his head he ever experienced. I have actually knocked a few people out like that. The lick is so loud everyone stops and looks at you. Like a gun shot.
I guess my worst night on the job was when a very large man was beating on a really small guy. I tried to get between them without getting hit in an effort to break it up, but the guy laid in on me. I managed to break his grip on me and reeled him backwards on a table, and when he came up off the table I did the solar plexus slap and when he leaned over toward me I grabbed him by his lips. I had his lips all rolled up in my left hand. He was completely defeated. He was trying to scream but my hand was in his face and preventing him really screaming out. Then his wife ran up behind me and shot me square in my ass. I can not really describe how that felt. It felt as if my butt had exploded. I could not let go of him or he would start up on me again, so I just reached out and popped her right in the tip of the nose. You never seen so much blood in your life as her nose was spewing and my ass was spewing. It totally ruined my weekend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. My wife told me that I had worked my last night as a bouncer. It was a .22, but was loaded with hollow points. They will make a mess of ones rear end. I don't know why, maybe my age now, but in those days I had no fear. Today if I thought I was going to have to fight I think it would scare me to death.

That's amazing that you can recall your fights in such detail. Personally, I can't do that very well. Most of my fights I can remember bits and pieces, some fights I just can't remember anything.

For example last night I had a great newaza session in judo, and got a lot of submissions between 3 of my classmates...I remember a successful RNC, the omaplata attempt, an arm bar attempt, 3-4 successful armbars, but don't really recall all of the details as to how I got them. Eh...I'm getting old.

[k gledhill]

K, an example of hard hands. I lived in New Orleans back in the late 60's and I was acquainted with a city detective that did board breaking during demonstrations at the academy, and rather than the little inch thick boards with sticks or penicls between them, he did a 2 x 4 with his palm. No tricks, no cracked boards, just a new 2 x 4 that was braced well. He didn't have a draw back either. He just shot his hand forward from about a foot away and the board smashed in half. Never broke cleanly though, but was held together by splinters.
With my right hand I have to use my palm, if I were to have to fight. I can not make a proper fist. And I feel comfortable in saying that I can hit and cause a lot of damage with a palm strike. It is my strongest hand. I worked in a few large dance halls where fighting was common, and I was one of the bouncers. It was probably not a good idea as I was only 5'4" tall, and when someone can look out across the top of your head they act silly. They do not take into consideration that you might weight 200 pounds and be made up of raw bone and muscle. There was always one of them that would get to thinking they can whip you and start working toward it. I think the most common attack was the attempted sucker punch while you were dealing with someone else. I would always keep a close watch for anyone coming close in from one side. Happened a lot. Then there were the guys that wanted to take you down and tie you up with a wrestling move. I would lower my center of gravity and being usually shorter than the other guy he could not really get down under me. I would give him one of the hardest slaps on top of his head he ever experienced. I have actually knocked a few people out like that. The lick is so loud everyone stops and looks at you. Like a gun shot.
I guess my worst night on the job was when a very large man was beating on a really small guy. I tried to get between them without getting hit in an effort to break it up, but the guy laid in on me. I managed to break his grip on me and reeled him backwards on a table, and when he came up off the table I did the solar plexus slap and when he leaned over toward me I grabbed him by his lips. I had his lips all rolled up in my left hand. He was completely defeated. He was trying to scream but my hand was in his face and preventing him really screaming out. Then his wife ran up behind me and shot me square in my ass. I can not really describe how that felt. It felt as if my butt had exploded. I could not let go of him or he would start up on me again, so I just reached out and popped her right in the tip of the nose. You never seen so much blood in your life as her nose was spewing and my ass was spewing. It totally ruined my weekend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. My wife told me that I had worked my last night as a bouncer. It was a .22, but was loaded with hollow points. They will make a mess of ones rear end. I don't know why, maybe my age now, but in those days I had no fear. Today if I thought I was going to have to fight I think it would scare me to death.

LMAO ! I had a fight one night with a guy who nearly ran me over xing the street after I left a bar doing security work, we got stuck into each other and long story short.. ended up on the hood of another car on the other side we are in a stalemate fighting and suddenly I get this "WACK" on my right eye...'THE GIRLFRIEND" had come to his rescue we shouted pleasantries at each other , I ended up with a huge 'mouse' over my right eye as a result of the GF , but got tender loving attention from the ladies at the bar I was heading too so it was ok .
We didnt have guns in the UK that anyone was aware of , they are like rare toys guys pull out once in a while ergo the high levels of random fist/knife/glass fights and street brawls after bars closed at 11o/30 pm in the old days .

Palms are good for striking with witnesses watching. The 'witness' will tend to see vt as the aggressive attacking psycho V the poor guy who was about to hit you . By using palms you could tell the police [who are usually on the security's side] that you "threw out your hands to push the guy off you to defend yourself ..and he fell over unconcious" we need an angel and halo icon here !

[Lee Chiang Po]

Van, actually, I am only telling it like I remember it. I am sure it didn't go exactly like that. The next day I find lip cuts and black eyes that I cannot for the life of me remember happening. I only remember the parts that make the difference. I also find that if one can hold focus, even under extreme conditions he stands a much better chance of survival. Here in the past few years my short term memory is almost none existant. I can remember happenings from a life time ago, but I can hardly tell you what happened 2 days ago.

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, back in the 60's and 70's no one packed. It was fists and feet, or occasionally a knife. But knives were at the time considered the choice of cowards. Then eventually the gun started to become the weapon of choice for most everyone. This would be my worst fear today if I were to have a serious confrontation. If a man goes into a pocket or seems to be reaching for something, you kill him. That was just a joke!! Actually, I have started packing myself.
I rode over into Dallas with a friend who also packs. We were standing outside his truck waiting for some boxes of chicken parts to come out the dock door. We were standing there talking when a tall, skinny guy walked up to us, but was actually closer to my friend. He told him to give up his money or he would shoot him. He had his hand in a jacket pocket, and instead of a gun he was holding a banana. I could see it. I started laughing and he got all mad and threatened to shoot me too. I pulled my rod out and pointed it at him and he pulled the banana out and started grinning. He said he was only kidding and turned and took off. I probably should have shot him. That was just last year too.

[k gledhill]

hah ! is that banana loaded ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry for the lighting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EUdSIqWNo

[SAAMAG]

Good clean break. Was that you Sanjuro?

[Mr Punch]

Sorry for the lighting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EUdSIqWNo

Pah, you don't fool us with you cheap kickboxing tricks.