Pulling Back Punches

[Grilo]

My thoughts - I think a lot of where your hands end up is based on your experience and previous training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClORg...eature=related
The fellow is this clip leaves his hand out similar to what Couch is talking about.

If you trained Karate for a long time I am sure that instinct is to draw your hands to chamber like they do. If you trained boxing you 'put up your dukes' as they do. I have limited TMA experience, I mostly have trained Capoeira, some BJJ, some Muay Thai. My hands do what is needed rather than go to a position set in my muscle memory.

As for my arms in Wing Chun I am not sure where they will end up as I am a beginner and have no habits yet. But with the thought of where my arms would go after a strike. Depends on if we are talking training or actual fight. This maxim stands out in my head 'Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact.' If I throw a punch and it connects the arm should be coming back under the next punch to Wu Sau.

just my thoughts.

Grilo.

[SAAMAG]

So you don't fully extend your arm when you do a man sau?

Nope....not relative to having the elbow locked anyway. That's the EBMAS and LT guys that do that...and perhaps the TWC too sometimes from what I've seen?

And just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here....you're talking about man sao the static lead hand in the guard position? Or are you talking about man sao, the literal action of entering into an attack through manipulation of the opponent's guard?

[couch]

Nope....not relative to having the elbow locked anyway. That's the EBMAS and LT guys that do that...and perhaps the TWC too sometimes from what I've seen?

And just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here....you're talking about man sao the static lead hand in the guard position? Or are you talking about man sao, the literal action of entering into an attack through manipulation of the opponent's guard?

And don't forget the Man Sau in the BJ!

I see in a lot of demo vids, people placing their Man Sau / Jong Sau waaaayyy out there instead of keeping it in a SLT (like what Kevin Gledhill was talking about) position where the elbow is close to the flank.

[SAAMAG]

Oops...yep. That one too. Which is Ed referring to we wonder...

[couch]

What are YOU trying to do with your punch?

Great question. The simple answer: hit!

The reason I brought this up is because of the nature of the WC drills I do and the nature of me hitting a heavy bag.

When I perform the WC drills (such as punching in two's), the arm in left to teach sensitivity. Also, in previous WC schools, I was always taught to leave the arm in contact with the punching mitt after I've punched. But I personally like to keep my hands close to my chin and body.

When I'm working the HB, I always move more naturally than in a WC drill (so it should be). I keep the hands by the chin and they come back there no matter the punch going out.

So I just wanted to get some feedback on the melding of these methods.

What are your thoughts, T?

Best,
Kenton

[t_niehoff]

Great question. The simple answer: hit!

The reason I brought this up is because of the nature of the WC drills I do and the nature of me hitting a heavy bag.

When I perform the WC drills (such as punching in two's), the arm in left to teach sensitivity. Also, in previous WC schools, I was always taught to leave the arm in contact with the punching mitt after I've punched. But I personally like to keep my hands close to my chin and body.

When I'm working the HB, I always move more naturally than in a WC drill (so it should be). I keep the hands by the chin and they come back there no matter the punch going out.

So I just wanted to get some feedback on the melding of these methods.

What are your thoughts, T?

Best,
Kenton

For me, WCK is an attached fighting method (unlike boxing). So we are always either attached or trying to become attached to our opponent (clinch). Only though attachment can we control our opponent.

There is a kuit that says "fist goes out does not return." We use stikes to set up control and control to set up strikes. Control while striking. If you hit and retract, you disengage, you lose your attachment. I don't mean that you will remain in the same position or that your hand will retain a fist shape, just that you hit not just to strike the opponent but to also get a handle for control.

There is also a kuit that says "no random hitting." You don't just hit what's open, you hit to further your strategic approach.

[Liddel]

Flying elbow is a consideration.... most people think of this in terms of being wide but for me it also applies to the elbow being to far away (foward) also.

I like Ts point about being in contact and retaining that....

When i think of sparring situations where a punch of mine is recieved by my partner and we close into clinch range, generally i dont take my action back i leave it out and the body follows in as my punch changes to a controlling action like bong for instance.

If my body doesnt follow up with outstetched action its vunerable to being controlled because of a lack of support -from the elbow and the horse.

My VT actions rely to much on the elbow for me to be absent minded enough to leave it straight and unsupported.

I don't mean that you will remain in the same position or that your hand will retain a fist shape, just that you hit not just to strike the opponent but to also get a handle for control.

Great point.

DREW

[Tom Kagan]

I am by no means implying that it doesn't happen or that there are no circumstances where you should, but if you believe leaving your arm extended the majority of the time is the proper methodology of a punch in Ving Tsun, then you do not understand the concept of recovery.

[Matrix]

There is a kuit that says "fist goes out does not return." We use stikes to set up control and control to set up strikes. Control while striking. If you hit and retract, you disengage, you lose your attachment. I don't mean that you will remain in the same position or that your hand will retain a fist shape, just that you hit not just to strike the opponent but to also get a handle for control.

There is also a kuit that says "no random hitting." You don't just hit what's open, you hit to further your strategic approach.

You're sounding like a WC guy. What have you done with Terrence?

I agree with what you're saying here. And your strategic approach to the punch is spot on, IMO. If you go for "the hit" you may have missed the point. You can take control with the punch and create the opportunity to hit cleanly and with power. Random hits are a shot gun approach - hoping that quantity will make up for lack of quality.

Fully extending the punch when you are out of range throws away your ability to control the center, and is a waste of effort. However, there are times when full extension is quite useful.

Bill

[Edmund]

And just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here....you're talking about man sao the static lead hand in the guard position?

Yep. You were referring to your man sao/wu sao setup as the fully retracted position. I just wanted to understand how bent your lead hand was.

Or are you talking about man sao, the literal action of entering into an attack through manipulation of the opponent's guard?

Nope!

[SAAMAG]

Yep. Lead elbow is about 2-3 inches from body. Like in SLT tan sao...but with the lead hand vertical.

[Edmund]

Yep. Lead elbow is about 2-3 inches from body. Like in SLT tan sao...but with the lead hand vertical.

You know you raised a really good point accidentally. The Man/Wu concept is probably where you do want to extend your man sao fully because it isn't about fixed positions.

The wu sao is guarding you by holding the opponent's dominant hand. The Man sao is attacking with power. It has to attack (hence extend) properly towards your target so that the opponent will be forced to try defend it with their other hand rather than strike.

Once that man sao attack is finished though, it has no power (very little range of motion) to threaten the opponent. It can grab the defending hand though and change to become a wu sao.

[SAAMAG]

I am merely talking about the static position of the hands when there is no action...but I see your point in regards to the action of asking.

[bennyvt]

When we are learning to punch we completly extend and lock the elbow to get full impact but then the punch is retracted back to a fist and thumb away from the body. Eventually the other hand is brought forward so that it replaces the other. Although there are moves that can deal with blocking or attacking from full extension these are not the preferable techniques. Normally if the punch is on top of your oppents ( jum or fuk sao etc) then the act of bringing the arm but with the elbow is used to clear the way for the next punch.

[Liddel]

The only action ive been taught to use with the elbow locked...is Fut Sao (one of).

The last action of the BJ form. (i have a step foward with the action, some do not)

One should note though that at least for me the action is using the shoulder and footwork to regain the center and elbow, because the elbow is locked or pulled straight by your opponent.

Its not done on purpose.....

So for me, my VT has an action with a straight elbow but it is done by the opponent and this teaches the user that a straight elbow can happen but its not something you want to do by yourself and if you do find it done to you, VT Fut Sao teaches you how to recover.

DREW