Bait and switch then used - disappointed in somebody

[Merryprankster]

And I'm not talking about a tranny putting a roofie in your drink

I have decided to begin training for MMA again, and went to the school to get some striking drills in. We share our school with a "combatives" type of style. They are leaving soon, as (good for them!) they have outgrown the space they occupy. Sometimes, I know, they spar. I've seen it. I saw them gloving up, and, having been invited in before, figured maybe I could get a little time in.

I asked "Oh, hey, are you sparring?"

"Yeah, some kicking! Come on in!"

Maybe I should have clarified what that meant. But, what this actually meant was kicking drills and some "self-defense" type stuff. They didn't spar. Well and good, but not what I am training for. Ok, figured I. Mea culpa for not checking. But now I'm in it, and I can't very well withdraw. That would be impolite.

Now, part of this was to execute the initial part of the technique series (heavy on groin shots and elbows to the head, etc.), then finish "however you wanted." So, I used my strength - grappling. This being a self-defense situation, I used takedowns and throws that left me standing at completion, with my opponent mostly or preferably under the knee-on-belly position, which I believe is optimal for ass-kicking and mobility.

"Ok, good, good."

So, I go through, training with my partners. About 30 seconds later, he calls everybody together, highlights my grappling experience, then asks me to do to him what I had just done to my partners. OK, no problem. I dump him, and place him in knee on belly. To clarify, this was not a bent over, "looking for mount" type of knee on belly. It was an upright, "ready to punch/kick/run" type of knee on belly - one geared towards my own mobility, rather than immobilizing my opponent.

"Finish," he says

"Ok, like, um, how do you want me to do this," I'm thinking because this isn't MY game, it's not MY class, and I'm here, even if disinterested at this point, politely and not to disrupt anything. He must have seen that moment of thought run over my face.

"Finish like you would, you know?"

Well, alright, thinks I. I already had his arm pulled way way up and secured into my stomach. I had gone nowhere NEAR armbar, because, typically, that's not what I was trained to do in a "self-defense" situation. But, I viewed his comment as a command/invitation to execute a jointlock.

While applying said jointlock carefully - on him, the non-grappling-experienced person-so-I-don't-hurt-him - the ****er pulls out a rubber knife and proceeds to start slashing me with it. Yeah, well, no ****...why dya think I was in knee on belly and not doing an armbar in the first place?! I want to be in a position to see what's coming, or to disengage while kicking you etc, especially if I find out you have a weapon! We were then treated to a two minute thesis on "not wanting to develop a relationship with the guy via grappling, throwing etc"

In essence, he used me as an example to his students about what was wrong with grappling (writ large, to include throws and slamming takedowns that leave you standing) and why what they were doing was "better." Completely disrespectful, in my mind, and not something I would ever do to somebody else.

It took awhile for it to sink in, what had just occurred. I was most ****ed because he's always been pretty cool, and I thought he was a better person than that. Why did he do that? There was no reason to. If that was something he wanted to leap on as an opportunity, (ie, there's an experienced grappler here today, let's take some advantage of grappling do's and don'ts, figure out what to do, etc, here, let me stab you with a rubber knife!!!) I would have been MORE than happy to oblige!

While I was most disappointed with him, I then had to deal with:

a series of smug, irritating follow-ups from one of his students, without being allowed to put him through the wall

the contradictory logic of some of the things spouting from another - for instance, a thumb gouge to the spot where the clavicles meet was used to try and get an attacker to go backwards. I missed at one point, and so resorted to an old wrestler's trick of pulling on the collarbone....which caused him to bend over, which meant I could move him since he was off balance. I then received a lecture on how what I had just done was "pain compliance...." Uh, and sticking your thumb in that spot isn't? Never mind that the collarbone thing was actually bio-mechanical (trying to get the weight forward or back so I can move him. The collarbone is a nice handle I can MOVE you with, for just a second, which opens up my counters, regardless of your pain level. ) But I digress...

I did however, enjoy the little irony that during 2 attacker on 1 drills two things we were told "this is not a boxing match" and the above treatise on grappling, were precisely the two things that stymied his students. My boxing footwork kept me at the exits, caused them to bump into each other, etc, and my grappling allowed me to move people into each other and such. I mentioned to smug boy (as part of a conversation he insisted on having) - well, I was staying near the door and he said "Well, what if you trip and fall on the railing?" I said "what if I get hit by a bus?"

He didn't get it.

Finally, at the end of it all, a well-meaning guy I like came over and started basically telling me all about the point of the combatives, and it was different, designed for the street where we assume the other person doesn't know anything (why this assumption, I don't know...) etc, and I waved him off and said:

"Look, I suffer no illusions that what I do is a sport. That's it. It's not self-defense. It's not training for "the street." We can all play what-if games all day - it will always be possible to come up with something or a scenario that puts you on the receiving end of an ass whooping. The biggest skill I take away from BJJ is this - there is only a VERY small percentage of the population that can KEEP me on the ground, and I know that mobility is going to be crucial to survival."

He paused for a second and said "Well, you know there is one person who can keep you on the ground - you. You can keep yourself there, if you aren't careful."

Easily the only valuable point of what was otherwise an unrecoverable hour.

I'm not ****ed off any more, but I am disappointed in that instructor. I always thought he was a better guy than to do something like that. It was, in my mind, a blatantly disrespectful thing to do.

[Shaolin Wookie]

WTF.........


Man, that's so low, it's practically groundfighting....LOL....

You should have broken his arm in an armbar and told him that's what you get when you bring a rubber knife to a groundfight.

[bodhitree]

yeah, unfortunately people always need to confirm to themselves and others that they have all of the answers.... even if these answers are hypothetical. That actually doesn't surprise me at all!

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's just arrogance. There's a lot of that in TMA. The kinds of guys that wear karate gi's to baseball games and get respect from local street gangs after punching out loudmouthed spectators and their fat white women.

[冠木侍]

Not as glamorous as the title sounds.

I've seen this before in some incarnation or another. You have every reason be (have been) angry at this person because you were basically used. The method I find that is used by SOME instructors to solidify their credibility is to disprove whatever theory that seems to be in contrast to what they are teaching.

Your up son!!:

You follow your cue and enter stage right..

Let the show begin!


You were the perfect example of what not to do because (from your accounts), you were put in a funny situation. You did something your would not have normally done in that situation because you were politely listening to instruction from a person you thought was a good guy. Sounds like a big set up in my opinion. Where was he hiding that rubber knife?

I have to commend you on your take down technique. The way you describe your method is actually an optimal technique because it keeps the other guy on the floor and you on top. Then as you stated, a knee in the gut or floating ribs, some kind of lock (arm, wrist) to keep them immobilized. You get a nice view of things just in case the other dude is getting ideas and your are in a good spot to deal with anything or to just take off and run. One thing I was taught was to make sure that they are not completely on their back, that they are positioned on their side, which makes it more difficult for a counter and opens up a lot of easy targets.

You may have been perceived as showing off and someone felt that you needed to be put in your place....one possible reason. But I wasn't there and I have naught any psychic powers to delve into the minds of others. My conjecture, is from the point of an instructor trying to keep interest and order within his school.

Do you not find it an honor that you are useful? J/K dude.

And the guy with the comments...how old was he? I find that a lot of young people like to mouth off even against older and more senior students if they think they are better or if you are better and just happen to have a bad day in training. Usually the sign of a kid who has a lot of growing up to do (yes, there are adults who have not yet grown up). Maybe you'll get a chance to "play" with him on your terms in the near future.

Take this as a learning experience of what not to do. Your skill is your own and it seems as if you are good at what you do. Grappling is very fun but I myself am a bit out of practice at the moment Currently just trying to get back into it...slowly but surely. When in the presence of other schools or styles, I don't really give it all away in the beginning. I'm not an attention seeker by any means and do not owe anyone any explanation about my experience...unless I know and trust you to some degree.

Don't want to sound preachy but I def sympathize with what happened.

Take care.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Agreed, somewhat, but it's mostly arrogance. Some people, as teachers (in all fields of education--especially the scholarly kind), cannot bear to stand on equal grounds. They always have to assert the upper hand/knife, by any means necessary, especially when someone challenges their range of comfort and they begin to feel insecure.

The real insult is that what was a friendly learning environment turned into a "Now I'm going to make a lesson out of you, boy" kind of thing to discourage his students from learning something valuable from a person with experience in that realm of thought/technique. That's just bad teaching.

The teacher who is not also a student is neither---(I think Y. J. Ming said that....or maybe it's an old proverb)

[yenhoi]

Troll

[Pork Chop]

I think he thought you were showing off with your fancy throws that probably weren't part of his holy curriculum.

as far as the mouthy kid, let him prove it... if he's got rubber knives, he should be able to apply his "advanced theories" on a moving target, no? In the meantime, you rampage him on his head.

[Samurai Jack]

It was an upright, "ready to punch/kick/run" type of knee on belly - one geared towards my own mobility, rather than immobilizing my opponent.

"Finish," he says

"Ok, like, um, how do you want me to do this," I'm thinking because this isn't MY game, it's not MY class, and I'm here, even if disinterested at this point, politely and not to disrupt anything. He must have seen that moment of thought run over my face.

"Finish like you would, you know?"

It sounds like Merryprankster was planning on being mobile and ready to move away depending on what came next... which is basically what the instructor seemed to think the correct response would be. It's a combatives class, not a sporting session, something Merryprankster clearly understood. He asks, "How do you want me to do this?" and the teacher indicates that he should use a grappling move. This gives the teacher the opening to demonstrate the point that both he and Merryprankster apparently agreed would be a less advantageous move on the street.

To me, the message was:

Because you never know what's coming, on the street, you don't necessarily want to go for the less mobile position.

The message did not seem to be:

Merryprankster is a fool because he grapples.

When the teacher said, "Finish like you would..." Merryprankster just as easily could have stepped back, simulated a kick to the back of the teacher's head, and run away. Something like that seemed to be the plan.

Why be upset that the teacher was on the same page, and wanted to demonstrate that to the class, with someone who actually knows how to grapple?

[Mr Punch]

Oh, OK, Jack, good explanation: I see where you're coming from now.

Although, I've never really had Merry down as the over-sensitive type, so I would guess that the guy's attitude and that of his class were what really p!ssed on any chance of this being anything of a genuine learning experience.

[rogue]

well, I was staying near the door and he said "Well, what if you trip and fall on the railing?" I said "what if I get hit by a bus?"

He didn't get it.

The good old "what if" game, the last resort of the guy who just realized that what he was taught isn't holding water for some reason and needs to draw attention away from that fact. I've seen this over and over again where people mistake the scenario or drill for what can happen in the real world and it's a real bad blind spot. Tell the intructor about SevenStar's elevator scenario and see if he has his guys training for that.

Finally, at the end of it all, a well-meaning guy I like came over and started basically telling me all about the point of the combatives, and it was different, designed for the street where we assume the other person doesn't know anything (why this assumption, I don't know...) etc, ...

It's a dumb assumption at best. Why not assume that there are a certain percentage of guys who know "something", or who are just real experienced when it comes to beating up guys and then learn to read what they may possibly know? The other thing is that most guys training for "the street" have little if any street experience.

[SimonM]

If any assumptions must be made the safe assumption is that your opponent knows how to fight. That way if it turns out that they do not you have a pleasant surprise and if they do you might not end up getting your ass handed to you.

[rogue]

Right, but to see why some of the assumptions are made you have to look at what is being sold by many RBSD and combatives instructors; solutions. Without the assumptions the solutions may not hold water and that's not good for the school, the instructor or the student's peace of mind.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If any assumptions must be made the safe assumption is that your opponent knows how to fight. That way if it turns out that they do not you have a pleasant surprise and if they do you might not end up getting your ass handed to you.

Correct, if we assume anything, it is that our potential attacker/opponent is stronger, bigger, faster than us AND knows how to fight.
While me may never meet Mr.Worse-case-scenario, its best to prepare for him.
Remember, Proper Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance.

[rogue]

If your opponent meets those criteria the only training to do outside of running or using a already deployed large caliber handgun, is kissing your tush good bye.

You will never train for the worst case scenario because you really don't know what it is.