Interesting Legal Case

[BoulderDawg]

I don't think that you would have to be a mental health professional to serve in this capacity. Autistic or not you would simply inform him that the behavior was inappropriate and he needed some time out then escort him outside.

I'm not talking about prison guards that's going to beat the boy if he got out of line. They would simply ask the boy to go outisde and if he wanted to cause trouble and refused to go a signal could be given for 4-5 other men to come in and take the boy outside.

Does anyone remember the old movie "The Grapes of Wrath" where they dealt with the trouble makers at the dance? This is a similar situation.

As I mentioned there are thousands of autistic and mentally retarded people going to services every sunday without problems. My guess is their churches have similar plans.

[MasterKiller]

I don't think that you would have to be a mental health professional to serve in this capacity. Autistic or not you would simply inform him that the behavior was inappropriate and he needed some time out then escort him outside.

I'm not talking about prison guards that's going to beat the boy if he got out of line. They would simply ask the boy to go outisde and if he wanted to cause trouble and refused to go a signal could be given for 4-5 other men to come in and take the boy outside.

Does anyone remember the old movie "The Grapes of Wrath" where they dealt with the trouble makers at the dance? This is a similar situation.

As I mentioned there are thousands of autistic and mentally retarded people going to services every sunday without problems. My guess is their churches have similar plans.

Obviously, if this were an option, his mother should have been able to control him and remove him.

I would speculate that his mother has never discplined him because of his disability, and therefore the kid just doesn't know any boundries.

[Mook Jong]

i'm personally a little curious if the kid even wants to be there. I know that from about the age of 8 i hated going to church and this kid might have an extra chip on his shoulder bc he is handicap and can't fathom why a merciful god would do this to him.

[MasterKiller]

i'm personally a little curious if the kid even wants to be there. I know that from about the age of 8 i hated going to church and this kid might have an extra chip on his shoulder bc he is handicap and can't fathom why a merciful god would do this to him.

I doubt his comprehension is that advanced.

[Sang Feng Fan]

They do break all kinds of laws. They are full of sexual predators who NEVER see a court room, let alone a conviction or a Jail cell. They just get moved to a new position in another church across the country.

It's called "passing the trash" and it only happens if the victims family passes on legal action and takes the church in question at their word to meet out their own justice.

[Mook Jong]

If nothing else, he might resent being forced into a public place. He might not understand the full extent of how much he stands out, but i have a strong feeling he realises he's different. Especially considering his size, god d@mn that kid is huge.

[Black Jack II]

I'm not talking about prison guards that's going to beat the boy if he got out of line. They would simply ask the boy to go outisde and if he wanted to cause trouble and refused to go a signal could be given for 4-5 other men to come in and take the boy outside.

Why should the church have to have a bat signal to escort an unruly kid outside?

The church has one job, to see to the spiritual health and education of its parish, not to play these kind of games. The mother's job on the other hand is to control her kid, something which she seem's to be bad at doing.

The kid is 225lbs, he pulls little kids onto his lap, even if it is just a mechanism that helps calm him down, he run's outside and starts people's cars and revs the engine because he says the noise calms him down.

Those type of actions should not have to be tolerated in this group setting.

But lets look at this once again....the church offered to come to this kids house and personally give him Mass, that is really above and beyond. That means some priest is taking time out of his own personal schedule to help this family out.

[GLW]

"And these "volunteers" are trained to deal with an autistic child?, they can escort him out without hurting him or anyone else in the process?"

From my days as the man in the qhite coat who is coming to take you away - Psych Tech in a Psych Hospital - The magic number they always throw about is 6 to 1...as in to SAFELY control a patient that is out of control, you need 6 to 1 - or there is a great danger that someone will be hurt. That works out to 1 person for each limb, 1 for the torso/waist, and 1 for the head.

With just 2, the 2 may not get injured but the one will. I have done it both ways. With an overwhelming force...and no one got much more than a nail scratch or a bite...and then with only 2 or 3 - and the patient always came up on the sort end.

[GLW]

Strangely enough, I agree with Black Jack - how weird...

The church is a public place where people have a reasonable expectation of safety and quiet services.

Small children are not taken into church but rather put in a nursery since they can disrupt things. This is an instance of a Not So Small child being disruptive. Since the parents are unable to do the parental thing of escorting the unruly child out, everyone has the right to expect that they will not bring the child there in the first place.

Now, I do have to wonder if anyone in the congregation ever offered the "Christian thing" of helping them at home so the parents could have a break away from the child? Probably not...they sure as he11 didn't for my family when my dad had Alzheimers... Such good god-fearing folks - sort of stopped coming around as it made them uncomfortable to see my dad's condition...never thinking about what it was like for their friend's family 24/7.

[Yao Sing]

Sounds like a congregation of potential self defense students.

[Becca]

it's an interesting dilemma: having witnessed firsthand the degree of disruption that an autistic child can cause (and believe me, it's significant), I can relate; to add insult to injury, an environment like a church can easily ramp up their behavior, as they could be overloaded from the sensory input, especially the way sound waves interact in that sort of setting; at the same time, the supposed mission of a church is inclusion;

I think that the church should have made some sort of accommodation for the boy and his family, perhaps hold some sort of shorter service designated specifically for him, and if he was able to demonstrate appropriate behavior after a period of time, try to re-integrate him back into the rest of the congregation: bottom line, it takes compromise on both ends

Thant's why they put "cry rooms" in truely family oriented churches. Or have special programs that "teach" kids about the religion while thier parents attend service.

That being said, this isn't a child. He may not be an adult yet, but he's certainly not a child. If the parents can't control him, they need to seek help, not inflict thier son on the innocent. Just as you are not allowed to take an uncontrolable, aggressive dog to the dog park, you don't take an uncotrolable, agressive person to church.

[BoulderDawg]

I guess what it really boils down to is the church willing to tackle a very hard problem that involves a family who is under a tremendous amount of stress as it is or are they wanting to run away from it. This church has shown they really don't want to deal with it.

In any case, this is not something that happens in every church but I would be willing to bet there are quite a few churches out there who deal with a similar problems. Now, I'm not a church going man but I know people who are and they tell me their church would deal with the situation without a second thought. Most said they would consider it a challenge from God or Buddha or whoever and would do whatever it took to make the service available to all.

This is just the way I see this. In my former MA class we had an autistic adult who sometimes would just walk around during class. However no matter what he did he was accepted by the group. I think it's time for some of these religions to understand and pratice acceptance............or they can sort it out in the courts.

[Vash]

There is a fairly broad line between acceptance and ignorance.

If, as was stated earlier, the person in question has NOT been raised with rather strict and firm rules, then boundaries will not have been established, and behavior will be off-the-wall.

Those with mental and physiological handicaps CAN be taught to adhere to certain basic rules, such as respecting personal space, not raising his or her voice around a large group, and to move more slowly and carefully when around others. But, and this is important, if the PARENTS or GUARDIANS don't lay down the law from an early age (have constant, consistent reward/punishment systems in place), then social acceptance/functionality is a very slim chance.

In this regard, I would say the church made the right move, especially if the child was endangering the elderly and the young.

[Black Jack II]

This church has shown they really don't want to deal with it.

No, your clearly dead wrong. They have, as already stated they offered to come to the kid's house and personally conduct mass, which is a very sincere gesture and is often done for many people who have disabilities or other social issues.

You just don't seem to understand that these people need to have some personal responsibility of their own when it comes to the kid and his reckless actions at this time.