Chow gar

[Mr Punch]

Met a Chow Gar (Southern Praying Mantis) bloke yesterday. I can't train (other than exceptionally slow forms) since I'm still injured, but we had a good chat and I showed him a couple of things, my friend showed him some more and he showed us some stuff (my friend also did some chi sao with him - hopefully he'll show up on this thread at some point to share some of his thoughts).

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people, but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

Good experience, and nice guy. Hope to actually train with him sometime.

[Vajramusti]

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

((Similarities- some but differences many- in structure, footwork and motions))))

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

((Odd? Fundamental to progression in wing chun. WC is not the only way to fight-but if one chooses the WC way- the SLT and good chi sao is part of the wc way))

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

(( Good WC has short power too-but not necessary to strike on trees))

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people,

((Not enough))

but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

((I dont "pull" punches-just control appropriate amount of power- depending on context/intent))

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

((He must have seen bad chi sao---lots of it around. Good that you got to work some with /observe another style))

Joy Chaudhuri

[HardWork8]

Met a Chow Gar (Southern Praying Mantis) bloke yesterday. I can't train (other than exceptionally slow forms) since I'm still injured, but we had a good chat and I showed him a couple of things, my friend showed him some more and he showed us some stuff (my friend also did some chi sao with him - hopefully he'll show up on this thread at some point to share some of his thoughts).

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people, but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

Good experience, and nice guy. Hope to actually train with him sometime.

Did you find out how long he had been practicing Chow Gar?

[Mr Punch]

((Similarities- some but differences many- in structure, footwork and motions))))

Sure. His basic stance was a little more sideways. He used a lot of something very similar to san gwok ma. Greater use of a more front-weighted stance though not as much as you'd think. Ways of issuing short power esp with two arms at once were pretty similar, tho he did tend to go way off line (obviously a strategy in CG).

The use of elbows was very similar to ours. As was their leg work (knee control, small stamps and trips and low kicks).

((Odd? Fundamental to progression in wing chun. WC is not the only way to fight-but if one chooses the WC way- the SLT and good chi sao is part of the wc way))

Sure. I like chun. I like the chun progression. But for a supposedly quick to learn and apply no-nonsense art, it has a very slow way of developing. There's no footwork in the first form! Of course there is the base of the later revealed footwork, but there's no movement! My school was relatively quick in that it taught turning drills and wallbag as soon as the student had the basic grasp of the punch and chain punch (after the first section) but I know of some schools that don't allow any stepping or turning until CK, because that's when they show up in the form... Which, frankly, is silly.

(( Good WC has short power too-but not necessary to strike on trees))... ((Not enough))

So you're agreeing then? I wasn't suggesting training on trees is the way forward. But compared to the wallbag you can vary the distance a lot more and use a lot more different parts of the body to strike, thus also getting used to hitting whilst moving and so not risking losing your structure becasue most of your stance work for the first year or so has been stationary!

I'm emphasising the importance of hitting something preferably as close to a moving human as possible. Heavy bags would have to be the logical conclusion (I've come to this conclusion many times from many different starting points...).

((I dont "pull" punches-just control appropriate amount of power- depending on context/intent))

Joy, what's the difference between 'controlling an appropriate amount of power' and 'pulling a punch'? They are neither of them hitting full power; they are both using a different energy. Are you saying you ever hit your partners full power so you can feel the effect of short power?

Most people I've seen and felt in WC demos and chi sao will say they're not pulling by using what I call a push-punch: you know the short power we've all seen that gets your partner flying back. Well, in a fight, I don't necessarily want to waste my energy getting my attacker to fly back. Of course, that is one of the WC energies and the one most easily and frequently practised. But what about the other types: eg penetrating and crushing/sinking? Well the first can be practised on a heavy bag, for example: if I can unload my strongest most rooted hit and the bag doesn't move, I know I've got it delivered correctly into the bag's centre of mass. For the second one if I can punch the bag and crumple it in the middle without it flying back (the most common energy for a body shot in boxing for example) I know I've got it.

Basically, again, that's the difference between practising at full power and not. The pushing energy is the only one that really gets practised at full power in chun it seems to me.

((He must have seen bad chi sao---lots of it around. Good that you got to work some with /observe another style))

Agreed, and yes, it was very useful. Not the first time and won't be the last.

Thanks for your reply.

[Mr Punch]

Did you find out how long he had been practicing Chow Gar?

Don't know, maybe three years... think he said, but someone's actions speak louder than time in. Why?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Met a Chow Gar (Southern Praying Mantis) bloke yesterday. I can't train (other than exceptionally slow forms) since I'm still injured, but we had a good chat and I showed him a couple of things, my friend showed him some more and he showed us some stuff (my friend also did some chi sao with him - hopefully he'll show up on this thread at some point to share some of his thoughts).

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people, but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

Good experience, and nice guy. Hope to actually train with him sometime.

A Paul Whitrod guy perhaps?

[Mr Punch]

I've no idea who Paul Whitrod is... I'm on a different continent don't forget. But I think he's the student of one of Henry Su's students if that's any good to you. An Aussie.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've no idea who Paul Whitrod is... I'm on a different continent don't forget. But I think he's the student of one of Henry Su's students if that's any good to you. An Aussie.

Sorry dude, I read bloke and assumed the UK, my bad.

[HardWork8]

Don't know, maybe three years... think he said, but someone's actions speak louder than time in. Why?

Some times someone's "time in" is a good indicator of his actions and skill.

[Mr Punch]

Sorry dude, I read bloke and assumed the UK, my bad.

I'm a Brit, true, but I live just out of Tokyo, and have done for eight and a half years.

Some times someone's "time in" is a good indicator of his actions and skill.

Sure, if you're talking to them in the pub.If you have a chance to train with them you can measure their skills more effectively.

I was looking at the way he handled my training partner, who's about nine years in (but the last three without a teacher) and who's abilities I know well, and who is an equivalent size to the Chow Gar guy (they're both about 195cm). He seems quite good, if that's any use to you!?

[HardWork8]

Sure, if you're talking to them in the pub.If you have a chance to train with them you can measure their skills more effectively.

I haven't had the chance to train with this guy, so that is why I asked you how long he had trained.

Also there are training aspects in Chow Gar that produce relatively longer term results. Knowing how long he had trained will help me assess his progress regarding these aspects of Chow Gar that is, assuming he traines/ed in an authentic school that taught those aspects.

I was looking at the way he handled my training partner, who's about nine years in (but the last three without a teacher) and who's abilities I know well, and who is an equivalent size to the Chow Gar guy (they're both about 195cm). He seems quite good, if that's any use to you!?

I have seen good Chow Gar and if this guy trained 3 years and lets say 3 times a week at 3 hours each time, then he should have blown your WC friend away. I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.

[Mr Punch]

I haven't had the chance to train with this guy, so that is why I asked you how long he had trained.

Fair enough.

Also there are training aspects in Chow Gar that produce relatively longer term results.

No disrespect (I know English isn't your first language) but I think you've made a mistake in your English here. A long-term result for an MA would I hope mean I could have a reltively good chance of protecting myself for the rest of my life. What would be a longer term result than the rest of my life? Celestial kung fu?!

I think you've Knowing how long he had trained will help me assess his progress regarding these aspects of Chow Gar that is, assuming he traines/ed in an authentic school that taught those aspects...

I have seen good Chow Gar and if this guy trained 3 years and lets say 3 times a week at 3 hours each time, then he should have blown your WC friend away. I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.

OK, so you should've quit while you were at least trying to make sense.

You want me to tell you how long this guy's trained so you can assess if his chow gar's a reasonable level and good line based on you believing chow gar to be a superior system to wing chun based on your three years of serious wing chun practice and having 'felt the power' of chow gar (so how much experience do you have of that and how long did it take you training in that to assess the standard of the guys whose power you felt?! ) without knowing the standard (just the length of time) of my friend's wing chun or how many times a week for how many hours he trained...? Is that about it?

You're a very silly boy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Someone's time "in" a system is irrelevant to how well they can do it, why?
Because it doesn't take into account prior MA experience ( shorter learning curve) or an individuals ability to learn and perform.
The proof is in the pudding, someone with 3 years of X and can use it well has a far better grasp of the system than someone with 7 years and who can't use it at all.
Common sense.

[Jim Roselando]

Chow Gar South Mantis

Sifu Yip Chee Kung Demo in Hungary.

Son of Yip Sui (founder of Chow school of Mantis). Before Yip Sui it was called Chu Gar Mantis which came from Lau Sui.

Hard and Tough South Fist Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDk...eature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chow Gar South Mantis

Sifu Yip Chee Kung Demo in Hungary.

Son of Yip Sui (founder of Chow school of Mantis). Before Yip Sui it was called Chu Gar Mantis which came from Lau Sui.

Hard and Tough South Fist Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDk...eature=related

Is there still any Chu Gar ?

I have seen a few clips on youtube of Chu gar and the forms don't look the same as the Chow gar ones...