No Chi Sau??

[Wilson]

Can you do wing chun without chi sau?

Seriously?

[Mr Punch]

Yep.

Seriously!

I met a guy who was Malaysian and he said he was doing some kind of Malaysian wingchun which came from mainland lines. He had really good energy: showed me a lot of nice stuff from two person drills and me chucking some random stuff at him... then we did some chi sao and I took him apart. Bear in mind I wasn't trying: I was deliberately going slowly and controlledly as I always do with people I'm new to (at least for the first few minutes!). He then told me that he'd never done it before .

Nice guy. Very good short power.

[Vajramusti]

Can you do wing chun without chi sau?

Seriously?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing Chun is not the only martial art nor the only way of self defense--but chi sao is an integral part of the version of the art which Ip man helped develop.

joy chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

I would agree if you're talking about Yip Man lineage wing chun but the question is just wing chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chi Sao is a drill, like any other, good and bad, take the good, disregard the bad.
Like any other drill it has pros and cons.
Its like asking if you can do boxing without the Double end bag, or doing grapling without shrimping or bridge drills.
Sure, but why drop something of it serves a purpose?

[t_niehoff]

Why look at this from a theoretical POV? Or listen to opinions? Instead, look at the evidence.

First, start with your performance results (after all, that is what really matters, right?). Get together with some nonWCK guys who have some decent attributes and simply fight/spar with them while (try) maintaining contact (attached fighting) and see for yourself if you can successfully perform all those things you've "trained" to do in chi sao. That will tell you how useful your chi sao "training" has been. If you don't do this, you'll never know. As most people have never done this, they don't know; they are just talking out their @ss.

Second, ask those people who insist chi sao is necessary and useful training to show in fighting (with nonWCK people with decent attributes) what they can do in attached fighting. I doubt most people will take this Pepsi challenge (after all, they will say, I am sifu and don't have anything to prove -- particularly that I can do what I flap my gums about); they know in their heart that they won't be able to make those things work. And if they did try, you'd see that can't do it any better than you. You'd see that the "masters" and guys who have been playing chi sao for twenty years won't have any genuine contact fighting skills.

My view is that WCK is not "in" the forms and drills, like chi sao. The forms and drills are only representations of the superficial, surface movements of WCK. They don't teach or develop contact fighting skills. They can't by their very nature. WCK exists only in application, in fighting. No fighting, no WCK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why look at this from a theoretical POV? Or listen to opinions? Instead, look at the evidence.

First, start with your performance results (after all, that is what really matters, right?). Get together with some nonWCK guys who have some decent attributes and simply fight/spar with them while (try) maintaining contact (attached fighting) and see for yourself if you can successfully perform all those things you've "trained" to do in chi sao. That will tell you how useful your chi sao "training" has been. If you don't do this, you'll never know. As most people have never done this, they don't know; they are just talking out their @ss.

Second, ask those people who insist chi sao is necessary and useful training to show in fighting (with nonWCK people with decent attributes) what they can do in attached fighting. I doubt most people will take this Pepsi challenge (after all, they will say, I am sifu and don't have anything to prove -- particularly that I can do what I flap my gums about); they know in their heart that they won't be able to make those things work. And if they did try, you'd see that can't do it any better than you. You'd see that the "masters" and guys who have been playing chi sao for twenty years won't have any genuine contact fighting skills.

My view is that WCK is not "in" the forms and drills, like chi sao. The forms and drills are only representations of the superficial, surface movements of WCK. They don't teach or develop contact fighting skills. They can't by their very nature. WCK exists only in application, in fighting. No fighting, no WCK.

I agree with you in most of what you said.
Question though, how do you view "pummeling" ?
All grapplers drill it and yes, I know it is not chi sao, but perhaps it is what chi sao is suppose to "become" ?

[Dave P]

Simple answer....

No

[sanjuro_ronin]

Simple answer....

No

LOL, to what question Dave?

[Ali. R]

LOL, to what question Dave?

I’m sure he’s referring to the opening of this thread… It maybe a short post but to me, it’s the very strongest on this thread, just my opinion…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

Can you do wing chun without chi sau?

Seriously?

Can you? Yes.

Should you? No.

Should you just do Chi Sau? No. You should also perform other drills such as long-arm Chi Sau and Goh Sau to help with bridging. Then the 'rest of it.'

Best,
Kenton

[RGVWingChun]

Wing Chun without Chi Sao? According to Ip Chun, Ip Man focused on Chi Sao 90% of the time...Ip Man said Chi Sao was the genius of wing chun.

Me personally, I don't think wing chun can be done without chi sao, because the forms only make sense through the chi sao training....wing chun is close quarter combat system...it doesn't make sense apart from bridge contact..."seek the bridge"...chi sao make the forms make sense, and chi sao helps to make fighting make sense.

That's my opinion of course....

Moses

[k gledhill]

Chi sao is the soul of the system...it hones the arms to sharp razors that cut as they slide in ...rotation...2 razors v one club

developing an angle to make the razor do 2 actions , even a razor can be dragged along an arm and not cut if the angles are wide enough, you may take some hair off but we arent giving hair cuts are we

[Mr Punch]

So most people here think:

a) it's a matter of opinion: something to be supported or not (and everybody here has the opinion that wc can't be done without chi sao)

b) all other forms of wing chun (other than Yip Man) are worthless (possibly even more so than other MA).

Riight. More arrogance from the WC 'community'. Oh well. At least you're all agreed on this one!

The answers:

a) It's not a matter of opinion; it is a fact that some non-Yip Man lines don't use chi sao. Therefore all of you Yip Manners speaking for all the lines you've never experienced and stating your opinion that you can't like it's a fact are, well... wrong.

b) You are stating your opinion as categorical based on your belief that Yip Man's chun is the strongest... on what foundation? Because quantity makes (beats?) quality? Because 'we're' all so unified in our agreement of this one point? Because of all the death matches you've had with chunners from other lines?

LOLorama.

[Mr Punch]

Wing Chun without Chi Sao? According to Ip Chun, Ip Man focused on Chi Sao 90% of the time...Ip Man said Chi Sao was the genius of wing chun.

Which one of his many many differently taught students did he say this to?

Since we do seem to be talkign exclusively about Yip Man's chun, then I would have to say that chi sao is a useful training tool... and a good starting point for teaching some points, but 90%? Sorry, but even if this is straight from one of the incarnations of Yip Man, I don't agree.