No Chi Sau??

[Vajramusti]

Who are you referring to?

joy chaudhuri

[Edmund]

Just a general statement.

WC people love chi sao so much they don't think it would be WC without chi sao as this thread shows.

[Vajramusti]

Ok-thanks for the clarification. Opinions abound. But FWIW I line up with the idea that chi sao is important for developing wing chun auto reflexes and developing the sense for what is open and when and what could open up and when.
You dont just throw bong sao, tan sao, fok sao shapes around or just chain punch. But chi sao is quite a process and meanings vary with people and schools. For me it is not only single and double and lop
but it also includes deveoping different kinds of timing and spontaneous combinations and gor sao, lat sao and moving in and out and changing angles, distance and foot work and controlling
what your structure, hands and feet are doing and controlling your opponent. And- wing chun folks I know and respect do work out with folks from other styles and boxers and grapplers.
Chi sao isnt fighting but it is an important link in wing chun's training system. In the details of chi sao there are lots of differences in details, practice, application and execution among schools. Sometimes in discussions we are not even talking abouth the same thing.Although there is good wing chun- there is a lot of substandard wing chun.

Also, wing chun folks who are going to do competitive fighting- some do do it- have to have a special training regimen-generally more aggressive than club training.

Thanks again for your clarification.

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

For me it is not only single and double and lop
but it also includes deveoping different kinds of timing and spontaneous combinations and gor sao, lat sao and moving in and out and changing angles, distance and foot work and controlling
what your structure, hands and feet are doing and controlling your opponent.

Im with you 100% here joy. Excellent call.

They way i train - this platform is sparring without full contact - punching hard is not the focus, thats done in full contact sparring with gear on.

DREW

[Edmund]

The reason I said what I did is because, to make another general statement, WC people are good at chi sao. They practice it a lot. This make them good at it.
If they suddenly stopped practicing it, they would not be good at anything else in my opinion (but trying to be as objective as possible).

They would be a poor imitator of another art without the background in that other art.

The original question is just a thought experiment essentially. The answers are a reflection of how much people value chi sao in relation to WC.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, I don't think approaching this from a theoretical perspective is helpful. Instead, we should look at it from a practical, individual perspective based on experience. When you begin to actually fight from contact (attached fighting), you'll see very quickly what you need to be able to do, what works, what doesn't work, etc.

Pummeling is more than arm swimming, but is fighting for position while in close body contact. Do you need that in contact fighting? If you do some contact fighting the answer will be obvious. Is it chi sao? No.

Should chi sao be more like Pummeling?

[KPM]

Just a general statement.

WC people love chi sao so much they don't think it would be WC without chi sao as this thread shows.

Which may be an indicator that perhaps you shouldn't just drop Chi Sao so readily from what you do. Maybe it does have some value.

[couch]

Ok-thanks for the clarification. Opinions abound. But FWIW I line up with the idea that chi sao is important for developing wing chun auto reflexes and developing the sense for what is open and when and what could open up and when.
You dont just throw bong sao, tan sao, fok sao shapes around or just chain punch.

joy chaudhuri

I agree with Joy.

It's important because it teaches you when to apply that "High Pressure Water Hose" when the line opens up.

In my Chi Sau world, the idea is to "move, control, hit." And if I were to pick just one out of those three, it would be to hit!

Best,
Kenton

[Edmund]

Which may be an indicator that perhaps you shouldn't just drop Chi Sao so readily from what you do. Maybe it does have some value.

I always said it has some.
I don't drop chi sao. I drop the useless aspects.

I also don't just do WC. I'm not a WC only person. Hence I have to weigh up the amount of chi sao I do, how I do it and what I'm doing it for.

*If* I spent 90% of my effort doing it like some people apparently, that leaves 10% for all the rest.

So that 90% better be pretty useful or I'm wasting quite a lot of effort getting good at something that has no use outside of WC circles.

[Wilson]

Should chi sao be more like Pummeling?

Good thought....one I've actually played with and really enjoyed.

If your end goal is not "to grapple", can you take the standard pummeling drill and look for elbows, knees, better positioning and angles...while at the same time learning to avoid grappling or the clinch and really use the WC distance?

Pummeling could be our "bridge" to working with other arts in a (umm...) realistic way???

[couch]

Good thought....one I've actually played with and really enjoyed.

If your end goal is not "to grapple", can you take the standard pummeling drill and look for elbows, knees, better positioning and angles...while at the same time learning to avoid grappling or the clinch and really use the WC distance?

Pummeling could be our "bridge" to working with other arts in a (umm...) realistic way???

Also, one of the most satisfying things that can happen is when you Chi Sao with someone with, say: a JJJ or a BJJ or a Judo or a ETC background. They will see opportunities and openings differently. Just this morning I had my senior training partner start to put me in an armlock in Chi Sau and it was exciting to escape this and hit!

Best,
Kenton

[LoneTiger108]

I also don't just do WC. I'm not a WC only person. Hence I have to weigh up the amount of chi sao I do, how I do it and what I'm doing it for.

*If* I spent 90% of my effort doing it like some people apparently, that leaves 10% for all the rest.

So that 90% better be pretty useful or I'm wasting quite a lot of effort getting good at something that has no use outside of WC circles.

Double edged this one Edmund.

If you're not a WC man, through and through, what makes you think you even know what chisau is? Let alone what you want it to be? Have you ever considered that it was 'meant' for Wing Chun circles ONLY?

Joy made some crucial points about 'everything else' that chisau explores, which makes it slightly more than a 'pattacake' session which I'm afraid to say I see quite a lot of online.

FWIW I believe Chisau to be a fundamental 'part' of WCK interactive excercise. Basically, connecting with the intent to control. WC students sure will be good at this skill in their own environment and you can converse and work out many things if you have an actual compliant partner. What I'm talking of are 'responses' (if I touch your elbow this way your reaction is...) Now we see chisau being tested more because people have different responses and are definately stronger athletes! But this shouldn't sway its purpose. Touch and finish. If you can't do this you may have just missed an important session!

Trouble is, I suppose we all get carried away, and from what I know of earlier competitions in the UK chisau soon developed into a sparring type selling point. This was never the intention by Ip Man, but its something that has happened so now we're forced to defend that which has also created more divides in the family.

IMHO Wing Chun with no Chisau like Ip Mans is an older version of Wing Chun. Not something to cast out on the streets, but something to be cherished.

[Edmund]

Double edged this one Edmund.

If you're not a WC man, through and through, what makes you think you even know what chisau is? Let alone what you want it to be? Have you ever considered that it was 'meant' for Wing Chun circles ONLY?

Well isn't that what the point of this topic was?
Regardless what the definition of chi sao is, for WC circles only it's very important.
It's something they devote the majority of their time doing at the cost of doing something else.

Hence the original question has the implication that doing chi sao all the time is defining their abilities. If it were gone, they wouldn't have any skills.

I'm not in the same position. I *can* stop doing chi sao. I don't need to justify all its methods and relevance because I'm not just doing chi sao 90% of the time.

[anerlich]

If your end goal is not "to grapple", can you take the standard pummeling drill and look for elbows, knees, better positioning and angles...while at the same time learning to avoid grappling or the clinch and really use the WC distance?

It's easy to add strikes to a pummelling style drill. Many MMA schools do this.

I don't think pummelling can teach you to "avoid" grappling when you both start with an underhook on each other in a classic neutral grappling position. If your aim is to avoid grappling, then avoid it.

If you want to become good at "antigrappling", learn how to grapple. Grapplers have the best antigrappling anyway as they are defending against grapplers all the time.

[Wilson]

If you want to become good at "antigrappling", learn how to grapple. Grapplers have the best antigrappling anyway as they are defending against grapplers all the time.

I agree with this 100%

From a standup fighter perspective, I think of the pummeling drill as a way of learning more about positioning and balance in that bridge/grapple range, with an emphasis on moving to striking rather than on takedowns.

Of course, if the other guy is trying to take you down during the drill, then that's an even better learning experience if you're trying to keep it on your feet to strike. Especially if they're a good grappler/wrestler.


Another question, do you believe you can you have an aggressive drill that works sensitivity? I think I hear some say that chi sau shouldn't be aggressive, but instead be cooperative. Thoughts?