No Chi Sau??

[Vajramusti]

Should chi sao be more like Pummeling?(sanjuro ronin)

Another question, do you believe you can you have an aggressive drill that works sensitivity? (Wilson)
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(No- to Ronin's question IMO

To Wilson's question-Agression and sensitivity are not mutually exclusive attributes.

IMO when folks dont learn enough wing chun-one can add bells and whistles from other systems. If you are going to wrestle-pummeling and hand grip drills can help.
But if you are going to do wing chun pummeling is not necessary.
I play my own wing chun game- a wrestler will beat you at his.
I have worked with good wrestlers to test wing chun.
Enough good chi sao you can begin to learn how to cut through close quarters work of other systems.

But if you dont learn enough wing chun, I can see people making their own stews.
Depends on what you want to do. Not selling dogmas))

joy chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

To Wilson's question-Agression and sensitivity are not mutually exclusive attributes.

Er, yes they are.

[Vajramusti]

Mr Punch


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
To Wilson's question-Agression and sensitivity are not mutually exclusive attributes.

Er, yes they are.(Mr. Punch)
__________________


loi lau heui sung lat sau jik chung !!!

Punch when you should.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Another question, do you believe you can you have an aggressive drill that works sensitivity? I think I hear some say that chi sau shouldn't be aggressive, but instead be cooperative. Thoughts?

To some degree, all drills are cooperative. I don't agree that chi sao or pummelling have to be totally cooperative, however. Generally, the first thing you do after learning the basic pummelling drill is to fight for double underhooks. That's not cooperative, it's still a drill. Then you move on to adding armdrags, duckunders, snapdowns and shoots - not cooperative but still a drill. In BJJ you can roll in a cooperative fashion or go 100% competitive. When does it stop being a drill and turn into sparring? Which some might still regard as a drill because you're not trying to kill each other ASAP.

One of my gradings included about 30 minutes of "chi sao" - I finished that session with two black eyes, one side of my body red from impact, a bruise in the shape of a palm print on my chest with three individual fingers visible, and another in the shape of the ball and toe panel of a wrestling boot near my solar plexus. Good times. That's at the extreme aggression end, but you can work many drills on a specturm between total cooperation and total competition.

To Wilson's question-Agression and sensitivity are not mutually exclusive attributes.

Er, yes they are.(Mr. Punch)

Mr Punch, Please explain. I might agree with your logic, but IMO you need to justify this bald statement.

[Liddel]

Another question, do you believe you can you have an aggressive drill that works sensitivity? I think I hear some say that chi sau shouldn't be aggressive, but instead be cooperative. Thoughts?

Learning sure, later its should def not be cooperative IME.

Gor Sao and Lux have force and full intent where i train, you will see both controlled aggression and sensitivity at work.

IME it can seem co operative to someone looking in but both participants are VT stylists so of course both want to stick and control etc giving that appearence.
But its not, emphasised by strikes

If your talking Chi Dan Sao an isolated repetitive drill, you should have intent which lends to aggression IMO and its mainly about sensitivity being that the user is bound to 'playing the game' of keeping to the platform of Tan Da Bong - Fook Jum Da.

IME where Chi Sao is the most vunerable is in the intent of the participants.

Often i see younger students just putting thier punch out willy nilly, not aiming at the face properly which then effects the reaction of Bong....

The same with the punch after Tan, no intent effects the block of Jum. It becomes very easy to block and even in some cases with younger students i havent even reacted to show them they wont even touch me because of this lack of intent.

This IMO makes an already non realistic isolated drill even more unrealistic.

Thats why its so important to learn under a good teacher, they should know how to spot these things and assist in keeping it as real as possible for an isolated drill. They can also recognise new gained skills and move you on....

Its just a stepping stone to agressive un cooperative Gor and Lux Sao where all your VT can come out when and where needed. (and full on sparring of course )

DREW

[namron]

To some degree, all drills are cooperative. I don't agree that chi sao or pummelling have to be totally cooperative, however. Generally, the first thing you do after learning the basic pummelling drill is to fight for double underhooks. That's not cooperative, it's still a drill. Then you move on to adding armdrags, duckunders, snapdowns and shoots - not cooperative but still a drill. In BJJ you can roll in a cooperative fashion or go 100% competitive. When does it stop being a drill and turn into sparring? Which some might still regard as a drill because you're not trying to kill each other ASAP.

One of my gradings included about 30 minutes of "chi sao" - I finished that session with two black eyes, one side of my body red from impact, a bruise in the shape of a palm print on my chest with three individual fingers visible, and another in the shape of the ball and toe panel of a wrestling boot near my solar plexus. Good times. That's at the extreme aggression end, but you can work many drills on a specturm between total cooperation and total competition.



Mr Punch, Please explain. I might agree with your logic, but IMO you need to justify this bald statement.

certainly sound like good times andrew, what grading was that one and did you still have to cop sparring rounds after?

I really hate it when the will is there but the body is totally knackered during the end of a grade (which is usually where the sparring rounds sit).

Dunno how it is for you, but this is usually when sifu starts stacking multiple opponents (i.e. rounds of one opponent, two opponents, three opponents)

Almost a slug fest in the end cause all motor skills are shot from fatigue.

I would be interested in how others grading structures are.

Do all grades (especially senior grades) follow a similar spa to burn out phase at the end?

Been watching some of Allan Orr's stuff again, was wondering how they round out their grades too (allan you out there still?)

[anerlich]

The grading I did was all the forms, 108 dummy movements, weapons forms, weapons sparring with protective gear, 30 minutes of "chi sao" as described, then somewhere around 10 rounds of sparring with fresh opponents.

I'm a skeptic and secularist, but it was a pretty spiritual experience. I was pushed to my limit. I literally could not stand up afterward.

In Machado BJJ, you have to do 10 2 minute rounds with fresh opponents for the blue belt test, and this is the most physically demanding grading (though every rolling session is tough), but that was easy compared to this WC grading. Getting to purple belt was REALLY hard work over a period of years, but the actual grading day itself was actually not that taxing.

I'd love to see all the chi sao decriers here step up and show us how its done. I doubt the most vocal critic (guess who?) would last more than a few minutes, if that. Of course, it won't ever happen.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"To some degree, all drills are cooperative. I don't agree that chi sao or pummelling have to be totally cooperative, however. Generally, the first thing you do after learning the basic pummelling drill is to fight for double underhooks. That's not cooperative, it's still a drill. Then you move on to adding armdrags, duckunders, snapdowns and shoots - not cooperative but still a drill." (Anerlich)


***AND THE SAME WITH CHI SAO. It's best to learn and drill some stuff cooperatively (luk sao, punch from fuk, block/redirect with tan, lop sao, defend against it, palm strike, jut against it, etc., etc.) - and then compete with what you've learned. And keep building upon it.

But to take chi sao and turn it into an all out "competition" that takes up to 1/2 or 3/4's of your class time is absurd...

because whether it's cooperative or competitive it's STILL just a limited construct to what the total fight picture looks like.

......................................

And more to the point of this thread: I have recently begun a slightly different addition to the whole chi sao/pummeling...striking/grappling....thing. (Since I now consider what I do to be a mixed martial art).

Chi sao is chi sao in the wing chun class....pummeling is pummeling in the catch wrestling class....

And then in the all out sparring class I sometimes try to stop and start the action to point out where and when the two drills and their respective principles, strategies, and techniques can overlap and/or marry - creating a mixture wherein the basic concepts of both chi sao and pummeling are, in effect, thrown out and replaced by a simple understanding:

strike him or grab him as appropriate to the idea of inflicting immediate pain or dominance.

Period.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"To some degree, all drills are cooperative. I don't agree that chi sao or pummelling have to be totally cooperative, however. Generally, the first thing you do after learning the basic pummelling drill is to fight for double underhooks. That's not cooperative, it's still a drill. Then you move on to adding armdrags, duckunders, snapdowns and shoots - not cooperative but still a drill." (Anerlich)


***AND THE SAME WITH CHI SAO. It's best to learn and drill some stuff cooperatively (luk sao, punch from fuk, block/redirect with tan, lop sao, defend against it, palm strike, jut against it, etc., etc.) - and then compete with what you've learned. And keep building upon it.

But to take chi sao and turn it into an all out "competition" that takes up to 1/2 or 3/4's of your class time is absurd...

because whether it's cooperative or competitive it's STILL just a limited construct to what the total fight picture looks like.

......................................

And more to the point of this thread: I have recently begun a slightly different addition to the whole chi sao/pummeling...striking/grappling....thing. (Since I now consider what I do to be a mixed martial art).

Chi sao is chi sao in the wing chun class....pummeling is pummeling in the catch wrestling class....

And then in the all out sparring class I sometimes try to stop and start the action to point out where and when the two drills and their respective principles, strategies, and techniques can overlap and/or marry - creating a mixture wherein the basic concepts of both chi sao and pummeling are, in effect, thrown out and replaced by a simple understanding:

strike him or grab him as appropriate to the idea of inflicting immediate pain or dominance.

Period.

Chi Sao for positional dominance....who'd a thunk it ??!?!?

[robwdwc]

Hi Terence,

My view is that WCK is not "in" the forms and drills, like chi sao. The forms and drills are only representations of the superficial, surface movements of WCK. They don't teach or develop contact fighting skills. They can't by their very nature. WCK exists only in application, in fighting. No fighting, no WCK.[/QUOTE]

Long time no speak!! )

I agree with you whole heartedly. I always say in you can't transform a technique from chi sao to 'actual combat use' then don't train it in chi sao. We've all seen the 'chi sao' techniques in various media etc. People get 'good' at chi sao and get banged with a good hook punch or a over hand cross - and why, because they are 'expert' at straight line punches and 'touches' from chi sao, change the angles and it messes them up. Chi sao is an 'exercise' to build ting jing and basic understanding of of the use of the 3 seeds - tan, bong , fook and structure - once you got that take it to san sao and free the hands. Start with the trusty straight line punches so you are in your comfort zone then ask your partner to do any shape / angle punch. Be sure to get your partner to wear good gloves as it really hurts when your tan can't stop his cross or hook. Now I'm not refering to a 1-punch attack I'm refering to a good boxers hands that zips in 3 punches as fast a wing chun guy can 'let them go'. You'll find as you go to bridge against his jab he is changing real fast and not leaving his arm out as in chi sao - a bitter pill to swallow.......

Kind Rgds
Rob

[Mr Punch]

Mr Punch, Please explain. I might agree with your logic, but IMO you need to justify this bald statement.

Adrenaline.

Unless you really are the zen master who can turn on the aggression as you need it without any interference from chemicals in the brain...

[k gledhill]

Hi Terence,

My view is that WCK is not "in" the forms and drills, like chi sao. The forms and drills are only representations of the superficial, surface movements of WCK. They don't teach or develop contact fighting skills. They can't by their very nature. WCK exists only in application, in fighting. No fighting, no WCK.

Long time no speak!! )

I agree with you whole heartedly. I always say in you can't transform a technique from chi sao to 'actual combat use' then don't train it in chi sao. We've all seen the 'chi sao' techniques in various media etc. People get 'good' at chi sao and get banged with a good hook punch or a over hand cross - and why, because they are 'expert' at straight line punches and 'touches' from chi sao, change the angles and it messes them up. Chi sao is an 'exercise' to build ting jing and basic understanding of of the use of the 3 seeds - tan, bong , fook and structure - once you got that take it to san sao and free the hands. Start with the trusty straight line punches so you are in your comfort zone then ask your partner to do any shape / angle punch. Be sure to get your partner to wear good gloves as it really hurts when your tan can't stop his cross or hook. Now I'm not refering to a 1-punch attack I'm refering to a good boxers hands that zips in 3 punches as fast a wing chun guy can 'let them go'. You'll find as you go to bridge against his jab he is changing real fast and not leaving his arm out as in chi sao - a bitter pill to swallow.......

Kind Rgds
Rob[/QUOTE]


This is a common misunderstanding in chi-sao training . To assume the tactical fight is in the chi-sao drill starting positions. Think about it ....why would you stand in the middle of a guy's arms capable of throwing fast flanking shots from both sides ?
Your a heavy bag turning to fight arms ...if he just ducks down and or shoots, you are training to fight like a statue doing salutations with both arms in the air, great for birds to hang out on.

answer , you wouldn't adopt this fighting tactic. If you have a fight do you extend both arms and seek contact ? or strike from available angles and space while avoiding being hit yourself , tactically. Any good boxer learns to "float like a ....sting like a...". This idea isnt exclusive to western boxing. How to get to the guy and execute a tactical 'pointing finger' is usually not working because it comes from knife fighting. Knife fighting is not commonly done with a tactical duality to bare hands . Simply because the redundant idea that the chi-sao will make you a super hero is reinforced by further 'competition' within the boundaries of our 'TRAINING" angles etc and mutual betterment of a functioning assault, that requires certain techniques to achieve its goal is lost to a sticking , 'you cant get me , but I can get you ' slap fest. When the frustration of the ego surfaces , the lop n chop comes out , the western slapping hand , the palms on wrists , elbows up in the air hands above heads ...feeeeling.... the wrestle up and down clinching chi-sao...bs for short.

Why chi-sao ? to have arms capable of withstanding to and being able to fight and deflect force or stalemate without collapsing while maintaining an attacking response , either individually using the 2 actions per strike, or 2 hands in rotation as 'door openers' . Never using two extended arms in a waddling basic stance for anything except another style.

We train here as partners , finish. We mutually exchange the same angles and responses to better our positions, attributes, etc...we can increase pressure to find faults , bad vu-sao , hips twisted , feet wrong...no impact force , let alone being able to stop entry with a counter strike. We fight a mirror of ourselves using = ideas and opposite roles to be attacker /counter attacker. How to receive and how to give. We don't charge into the dummy head on with a lead leg , so why do so many do this in chi-sao and you tube clips ? simple answer isn't a nice one .


There is a missing piece of the 'fighting bubble' of requirements, not least the ability to shift and move in a face off with an attacker.

IME many adopt a mainstream view of chi-sao , beig the 'WAY' without any input from a higher idea of simply , 'what to do when I face MYSELF with a knife in each hand ?' what is my idea how do I deal with it and stop myself ? Whats the best position for % to be better off in a fast exchange of blurring , timeless stabs/chops ? How will I react ? by thinking differently to my chi-sao rolling positions ? too late !


think about how your fighting a person , face on 100 % of even a school kids wild swinging ability or attacking them as they present 50 % by having a tactical response and instinctive movement from a perimeter face off , like any fighters vying for a shot and counter....

the difference in vt is that the counters are attempts to sustain the assault to and end for a 'combat' mind to survive , not 'out point' the guy.

The chi-sao develops the arms etc. to work independently to throw shots that can act as 2 hands per strike...they cant do this if they train to go 'off-line' and adopt a chase idea from chi-sao. There are many pitfalls in chi-sao without proper guidance from someone who knows to fight with the system, rather than to adopt an abstract disjointed approach by doing set pieces , then doing 'contact' exercises. Like saying 'look for contact to control' rather than develop a higher ability than the other guy in your arms ...why wrestlers are beating you at wrestling...why guys who throw free flanking strikes to you with a lead leg forwards backwards on a line approach get taken down so easily....your training to be were they want you , front and center

Don't be where they think you will be and you can become an elusive counter striker from random angles that are adopted by the actions of the attacker..There is nothing written in stone that says you have to even touch an arm ...sometimes blocking it will help them to not over-swing at you off balance etc...by adopting a middle face off turning to block [ I hate saying that] you in effect 'stop' their mistakes and help them throw another shot from the opposite side...they can duck /slip and take you down , simply because your 'root ' idea was ingrained into you improperly.

i learned on my feet 'so to speak' hitting guys coming at me in bars /clubs doing 10 years of security work ..adopting a perimeter and striking at angles is a natural action..if you fight 1/2 the man you don't need to fight the other arm ..ergo we train to overwhelm with 1 arm capable of acting like 2 per strike ...each arm is always simply striking and ****ing to maintain the working distances and tactical angles /responses ...through chi-sao training not like chi-sao drill stance starting points.

If you stand either side of a guy ..you don't need to extend your arm/s to block the off side arm unless they manage to face you and place you in their 'strength' facing you square on...so what do you do then ? make them over turn , lop them if you have to get them turned, allow the swing to arc past you to 'take' the offering of entry...
it boils down to how good is their attack ? how good is the delivery [telegraphed] and recovery of the attack to re-face ?

Attacking is a concept all do in fighting. bjj is very good at it because they are doing a vt mind set of combat to an end by getting in and staying in to work an idea to its end ...not back off, shoot, back off , let go...VT should smother you standing up, bjj while your past striking ...on the ground. and striking again or submitting .

[bennyvt]

In our school the main thing we talk about is constant forward force, Meaning that if there is a gap then your hand should move before your brain reacts. Just like mat time for BJJ people, they normally start on the gruond or grabbing as this is what they want to train. We go into chi sao much the same. But yes i believe just chi sao is not enough. Gor sao when the arms are not in contact is more like a real fight. I also find practicing with other styles helps. In the old days they would have a challenge, talk about why this worked and that and learn from this, we cant any more so we have to limit what we can do.
Chi sao is about repetion, you train your body as quickly as you can to do certain things when given a certain stimulus.