The Pole

[KPM]

Spencer, I did as you suggested and did a little research into your past posts. What follows is from a post you made in 2011:

I haven't posted anything here in a while but seeing as I am being asked so many questions about my Sigung Lee Shing I thought it may be better for me to publish his 'official' Biography here.

Grandmaster Lee Shing was born in 1923 in Hoxan in Southern China. He first studied Gulao (Pien San) Wing Chun at an early age in mainland China under his first teacher Fong Yee Ming, who himself had learnt from Wong Wah Sam who had learnt from Leung Jan. Lee Shing was a keen disciple and was inspired to research the different styles of Wing Chun, He therefore, in his research, went on to study under Fung Sang who was one of the central points of Pien San Wing Chun, having studied under his father Fung Lim and his uncle Koo Siu-Lung (both students of Wong Wah Sam). He then went on to learn from the famous Kung Fu Master Ng Jung So.

In this old post you support the idea that Lee Shing both studied with the Fung family and specifically learned "Pien San Wing Chun." So I don't know what you are up to, but I for one don't appreciate the way you have conducted yourself in this thread. I have to say that as far as I am concerned, any info you may decide to provide on Lee Shing WCK in the future I will take with a "grain of salt." Other's mileage may vary. I'm done with this thread.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, I did as you suggested and did a little research into your past posts. What follows is from a post you made in 2011

...In this old post you support the idea that Lee Shing both studied with the Fung family and specifically learned "Pien San Wing Chun." So I don't know what you are up to, but I for one don't appreciate the way you have conducted yourself in this thread. I have to say that as far as I am concerned, any info you may decide to provide on Lee Shing WCK in the future I will take with a "grain of salt." Other's mileage may vary. I'm done with this thread.

You're quite a funny guy really aren't you? Of all my 2962 posts on here you decide to choose this one...

I thought it would be clear enough even for you to see that this was a straight 'copy paste' from the official history of my Sigung that was available then, in fact the only 'official' anything about him to be fair. How it was decided this was official is anyones business and this was one of my reasons for sharing it on the forum at the time. Written by one of uncle Joe lees eldest students.

I have heard my Sigungs teachings called many things over the years and to be honest why would I care what you think about my conduct on here? As far as I can tell, you have nothing whatsoever to do with me or my Sifu or Sigung, yet you seem to be angling yourself here in this thread as the Devils advocate, or dare I say trouble maker! Maybe you should take a job in media?

Myself and Michael have a bit of history, he seems to wade in here when it suits him and has shared very little info about our family, in comparison to the work I have done over the years. He has pretty much re-ignited the big Kulo or not Kulo debate, which in some respects is good because it allows views from all sides to be heard. I will always hold my view that my Sigung has absolutely nothing to do with the Kulo region of China, or the more recent promotions of Kulo WCK by the Fung family and their heirs. He never made any claim of such views either but again, maybe something for another thread over time.

If you choose to take my info with a grain of salt, and believe others that's your perogative. I am only here on a research mission dude, and if you ever do spend the time going over my posts you will see that my views have changed, my research has grown and all in all I feel I have contributed to the promotion of the Lee Shing Family as a 'whole'. Others who I know will agree, and disagree too. Each to their own as I always say.

For the record, my personal view is, any interest in modern Kulo WCK or Pinsun methods should be steered towards those that actually do represent the Fung family today.

[KPM]

Well, there you go again Spencer. Did he learn from the Fung family or not? You can't seem to make up your mind! I'm not trying to stir up anything. I made a simple statement. You said it was "misinformation" and have been very cagey about not saying WHY you think it is misinformation. You keep saying it is a discussion for another thread, yet are perfectly wiliing to keep diverting on this thread. I really don't care any more at this point. I'm not out to prove anything one way or the other. I was just curious. But again, I'm not likely to trust whatever you choose to post in the future based upon what you've posted here.

You wouldn't give a straight-forward answer but rather suggested I go back and wade through your over 1000 posts on the forum. So I took your advice and did a little research. You don't like what I found. Well, that's on you since you didn't want to explain. But my patience has run out now. On to better things!

[LoneTiger108]

Well, there you go again Spencer. Did he learn from the Fung family or not? You can't seem to make up your mind!

Sorry now I am confused?? Which part of... "FWIW I have never said my Sigung didn't learn from the Fung family, because as far as I am aware he did" confuses you?

Banging my head on a brick wall trying to figure out your confusion? Are you that concerned of 'why' my sigung teaching 'Kulo WCK' is misinformation?

Here's my question for you... Do you know what the Fung Family called their Wing Chun prior to 1960? Do you know when/why/where/who started to even use the terms 'Kulo' and Piensan' WCK?

If not, maybe someone from the Fung family can share here?? Jim maybe?

Or like I have also suggested... start another thread?!!

[KPM]

Banging my head on a brick wall trying to figure out your confusion? Are you that concerned of 'why' my sigung teaching 'Kulo WCK' is misinformation?

---I keep saying I'm done here, but this last comment just demanded a response! Am I the only one confused here? Let's track Spencer's comments on this thread:


It started when I posted this comment that Spencer called "misinformation":

Quote:
Originally Posted by KPM
Doesn't the lineage say he learned Ku Lo Wing Chun as well as Ip Man Wing Chun? Don't you refer to your lineage as "Lee Shing WCK", not "Ip Man WCK"? I have no problem with the idea that he has elaborated or expanded upon the Ip Man pole he learned. I'd love to see it!

Hmmm... far too many things that are misinformation here I don't know where to start.

This comment came next in reply to Michael:

I have never agreed to the use of the term 'Kulo' or 'Piensan' to be used to promote Sigung, and again you also know why.

This was another comment in reply to Michael:

I know you say you have finished with the thread today, but please share with everyone where exactly I have DENIED Lee Shing learning from the Fung Family anywhere on here or anywhere else for the years I have been online...

This was a reply to me:

Originally Posted by KPM
---Did Lee Shing study Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK prior to Ip Man WCK or not?
Er... let me guess?

NOT!

That last comment certainly seems to be denying that Lee Shing ever learned Pin Sun WCK.

Then came this comment:

FWIW I have never said my Sigung didn't learn from the Fung family, because as far as I am aware he did.

And finally this one:

I will always hold my view that my Sigung has absolutely nothing to do with the Kulo region of China, or the more recent promotions of Kulo WCK by the Fung family and their heirs. He never made any claim of such views either but again, maybe something for another thread over time.

I asked very directly whether Lee Shing had studied Pin Sun WCK prior to studying Ip Man WCK on more than one occasion but these are the answers you have given. So it seems clear that you admit that Lee Shing studied with members of the Fung family. But it also seems you are suggesting that what he learned from them was NOT Pin Sun WCK?


Here's my question for you... Do you know what the Fung Family called their Wing Chun prior to 1960? Do you know when/why/where/who started to even use the terms 'Kulo' and Piensan' WCK?

And here it is again. Are you saying that Lee Shing did not learn Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK form the Fung family? Or are you just saying that it was called something else prior to 1960? Because if all this back and forth and all of your cagey responses have been simply because you object to a simple label, I will be very annoyed with you!!!!

If not, maybe someone from the Fung family can share here?? Jim maybe?

Yes, maybe Jim can chime in. Because you have asked what is "right" about Pin Sun WCK. You have suggested that the Pin Sun WCK is somehow using an association with Lee Shing for their own gain. You have suggested that pre-1960 Ku Lo Pin Sun may have been different from what the family did after that...therefore that the Fung family have made some significant changes in Leung Jan's original material. Or....are you just unhappy with the "label" chosen for the system?

And Spencer, you don't think what you have been posting has created confusion?

I was ready to drop it, but you have kept it going. Are you ready to "spill the beans now"? Or are you going to continue to divert and give cagey answers?

[LoneTiger108]

So it seems clear that you admit that Lee Shing studied with members of the Fung family. But it also seems you are suggesting that what he learned from them was NOT Pin Sun WCK?

Yes. I am suggesting that what my Sigung learnt was simply Wing Chun.

Are you saying that Lee Shing did not learn Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK form the Fung family? Or are you just saying that it was called something else prior to 1960? Because if all this back and forth and all of your cagey responses have been simply because you object to a simple label, I will be very annoyed with you!!!!

Sorry I have annoyed you!? I can honestly see the confusion much easier now you have pointed out what you have seen.

You have suggested that the Pin Sun WCK is somehow using an association with Lee Shing for their own gain.

No I didn't mean that sort of suggestion at all, more like the other way round as some of Lee Shings students have used this connection. For any gain though? I don't know. I have met and talked with more people that say he may have a 'flavour' of the mainland but it isn't the same as what they promote nowadays by far. Associating him is a way of explaining to others what some of us do, but it isn't how I choose to promote my, or my Sifus way of teaching.

Or....are you just unhappy with the "label" chosen for the system?

Well I actually thought I made that clear. Of course I am unhappy with the label but only in relation to my Sigung. What the Fung family are doing today is their business and they are doing a great job imho and may be upset that this connection is even made to Lee Shing. He was Ip Mans representative after all.

Sorry again for the confusion. You're not the only one to point it out to me so take this as me 'dropping it' as I will only dig myself a bigger hole... as if I aint dug a big enough one already!

I live and learn.

[Vajramusti]

Since the thread is about the pole form and opinions are part of the forum game-fwiw

1. There are differences in principles between weng chun and wing chun -kwan work

2. Lee Sing' stick work as shown in Goh's video and Goh's own work has little to do with Ip Man.s pole work.

[LoneTiger108]

... much of the differences of peoples pole/stick plays were discussed a few years back in another of my early threads... and to be honest after reading through it we all seem to have got along far better back in 2007

6 1/2 Point or 6 Point and Half?
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=48386

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1248077]... much of the differences of peoples pole/stick plays were discussed a few years back in another of my early threads... and to be honest after reading through it we all seem to have got along far better

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You lost me-
but boring it is.

[unlimit.p]

Do all wingchun lineage have same form of six and half pole technic?
Please tell me. I am confuse because each master from the same origin lineage show different form using or they just emphasize their form for easily use for attack.

[Vajramusti]

Do all wingchun lineage have same form of six and half pole technic?
Please tell me. I am confuse because each master from the same origin lineage show different form using or they just emphasize their form for easily use for attack.

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There are differences in pole forms and usage. There is no papacy in wing chun.

[unlimit.p]

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There are differences in pole forms and usage. There is no papacy in wing chun.

Thank you very much.

[PM]

My (half) point of view :-)

Hung Ga, Wing Chun and the Mystery of Half Point



http://practicalhungkyun.com/2014/08...of-half-point/

[Tonyjw86]

It looks pretty cool but I don't have much experience with the art. What do you experienced Wing Chun/Wing Tsun practitioners think of this schools style?

[ShortBridge]

I don't post often, but I know there are some very credible Wing Chun sources here when I do want some broader perspective and I do have a question/observation about the staff form. I really appreciate anyone who knows the answer or has some insight.

When I learned this form, I don't recall a strong message about which hand should be back (near the blunt end) and which should be forward (toward the middle) of the staff. I do remember a discussion about it being the only place in the system where we don't practice symmetry, the nature of the pole is that you have to pick an orientation. I always thought I should practice it both ways, but haven't made that investment.

I observe that most people I've met and in most photos or videos I see the exponent has their left hand in the back and their right hand in the middle, but not all. Some people seem to do it the other way.

Were any of you given an edict and/or explanation as to which way was "right" and "wrong" and why?

I have some theories, but confess to not knowing this answer, so I'd prefer to hear from someone who does. Thank you in advance.

Short Bridge Athletic Association
www.shortbridgeaa.com
Seattle, WA