The Pole

[Vajramusti]

Sadly i believe the VT pole is lost and if i were to believe my teacher who learnt from Lok Yiu and YM direct, there are less than a handfull of people alive that have actually been taught by people who attained skill with the Lok Dim Boon.(Liddell)
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FWIW-IMO- not lost. Correct that few people were taught the pole and finally the knives- in private lessons. Ho Kam Ming and WSL both learned the kwan and do. Sometimes some people were shown some moves.
The story of Ip man teaching the pole with chop sticks at a restaurant is not important IMO- you don't learn the pole that way.

Interesting controversy on teaching methods. In many arts and sciences-you build skills upon skills-
takes discipline and time and tuition to learn from the best.

Universities produce fewer top Ph.Ds than freshmen-though the latter accumulate credit.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer Lok Yiu's line (which ive learnt) should teach the student about which hand predominantly drives the pole and also which hand predominantly drives the power. This depends on which hand your dominant with in everyday life and thats what lends us towards teaching a student how to use the pole and on which side. Beleive it or not but there should be some lefties out there doing the pole although ive never seen them.

As far as were concerned its not just one way for everyone.

I agree to a point. Especially after witnessing a few lefties trying to 'force' the right handed pole from their being! One of the main problems of letting the lefties have their way is in the interactive training. It's harder to match the sets together.

And according to my research, our pole isn't a spear and shouldn't be used as one. Spear men or foot soldiers use the left in the front. The Generals, who tend to opt for the heavier weapon, use their right in the front. The Wing Chun Pole Form originates from a General, not a foot soldier.

Sadly i believe the VT pole is lost and if i were to believe my teacher who learnt from Lok Yiu and YM direct, there are less than a handfull of people alive that have actually been taught by people who attained skill with the Lok Dim Boon. Regardless there are people that give me hope. Respect to Sifu Bayer for one.

This is also what I've heard Drew, and what I've been trying to say for years. Lee Shing, Ho Kam Ming, Lok Yiu and Jiu Wan were some of the best weaponry men Ip Man produced. They were all also very close to eachother.

[LoneTiger108]

Real stuff is real simple.

What I said speaks volumes.

Okay, I have to agree with you there.

Musashi did this, Illustrisimo did this, other famous escrimadors did this. Look at the African tribe stick fighting - that's exactly what they are doing.

Mun Gwun is enganyo - feinting of the FMA, also like prakcion (fraction of a beat). You don't block and lock with a pole... you strike. There is a flow, delay, differentiation of timing, interception, etc. The eyes must be sensitive. Its all dynamic.

I don't like to talk about techniques - those are examples in time. Also, this is not the medium to learn from - you have to feel it. Painfully.

Again, you're using other arts to explain/justify what you do with your Wing Chun. Do you teach like this? I find it quite strange, originating from one teacher who also was only taught by one teacher.

He used other styles as examples, but not in the way you do. More in the way of highlighting strengths/weaknesses.

[Phil Redmond]

I agree to a point. Especially after witnessing a few lefties trying to 'force' the right handed pole from their being! One of the main problems of letting the lefties have their way is in the interactive training. It's harder to match the sets together.

And according to my research, our pole isn't a spear and shouldn't be used as one. Spear men or foot soldiers use the left in the front. The Generals, who tend to opt for the heavier weapon, use their right in the front. The Wing Chun Pole Form originates from a General, not a foot soldier. . . .

It's always to your advantage to be able to use the pole left or right handed. You said it's harder to match sets if one is left and the other is right handed. What happens if a right handed fighter meets a left handed and vice-versa? This also applies to empty handed fighting. South Paws give Orthodox fighters a hard time. The Pole also develops Cheung Kiu Lihk so you should train both side equally.

[LoneTiger108]

It's always to your advantage to be able to use the pole left or right handed. You said it's harder to match sets if one is left and the other is right handed. What happens if a right handed fighter meets a left handed and vice-versa? This also applies to empty handed fighting. South Paws give Orthodox fighters a hard time. The Pole also develops Cheung Kiu Lihk so you should train both side equally.

I'm not against learning the pole left handed, I just think you should get the form down with the right first before you switch it. There were reasons for this as we tended to use the pole to drill some empty hand attacks. Being naturally stronger on my right side I drilled that side first.

Dai Yat Dim is similar in many ways to Lee Shings 'Battle Fist', a cheung kiu lihk attack.

[anerlich]

I agree to a point. Especially after witnessing a few lefties trying to 'force' the right handed pole from their being! One of the main problems of letting the lefties have their way is in the interactive training. It's harder to match the sets together.

I'm a leftie. I've had no such problems.

Sounds like you've been brainwashed by the righhanded hegemony, and perhaps other parties as well...

[Sihing73]

I'm a leftie. I've had no such problems.

Sounds like you've been brainwashed by the righhanded hegemony, and perhaps other parties as well...

My youngest appears to be a leftie. I am trying to mold her into the Right Wing Majority but thus far have been unsuccessful.

Of course, they do say left handed people are the only ones in their right minds

Funny thing, although I am right handed, I have always naturally used a left hand stance when swinging a bat in baseball and also tend to fight Southpaw.

I must be conflicted

[YungChun]

My youngest appears to be a leftie. I am trying to mold her into the Right Wing Majority but thus far have been unsuccessful.

Of course, they do say left handed people are the only ones in their right minds

Funny thing, although I am right handed, I have always naturally used a left hand stance when swinging a bat in baseball and also tend to fight Southpaw.

I must be conflicted

No, you're a converted/conflicted Lefty.. Probably where she got it from..

Welcome to the Lefty club..

[YungChun]

I'm a leftie. I've had no such problems.

Sounds like you've been brainwashed by the righhanded hegemony, and perhaps other parties as well...

Do you do everything left handed? How about fighting lead?

Most lefties I know don't do everything lefty.. I sure don't...

[anerlich]

I'm a Southpaw, kick with my left leg, goofy foot surfing, left dominant eye - pretty left dominated.

I do use a knife and fork and the WC pole like a righty most of the time.

My right arm is slightly stronger than my left - for kettlebell presses, anyway.

[YungChun]

I'm a Southpaw, kick with my left leg, goofy foot surfing, left dominant eye - pretty left dominated.

I do use a knife and fork and the WC pole like a righty most of the time.

My right arm is slightly stronger than my left - for kettlebell presses, anyway.

Yeah it gets mixed and matched..

My left hand is dominant but I use a standard left lead naturally.. Throw lefty bat righty..

[CFT]

Would I be digressing if I asked if the overriding principle to the pole should be the maxim "gwun mo leung heung" (the pole does not make two sounds)?

This maxim encapsulates the idea that pole usage should be primarily about the attack, not block then attack, etc. If your attack carries a defense (lin da dai siu as Wan Kam Leung puts it) then all the better. I can't really see how one would "control" with the pole (compared to the empty hand techniques).

(I write with my right, but throw with my left).

[t_niehoff]

Would I be digressing if I asked if the overriding principle to the pole should be the maxim "gwun mo leung heung" (the pole does not make two sounds)?

This maxim encapsulates the idea that pole usage should be primarily about the attack, not block then attack, etc. If your attack carries a defense (lin da dai siu as Wan Kam Leung puts it) then all the better. I can't really see how one would "control" with the pole (compared to the empty hand techniques).

(I write with my right, but throw with my left).

As I see it, "gwun mo leung heung" refers to making contact and staying in contact with the opponent's weapon/body/etc. -- which makes only one sound with the initial contact. That requires a fairly close range. The WCK pole is a much closer range weapon IMO than is typically demonstrated (where the opponent beyond the end of the pole, much like fencing with the pole). At that range, you really have no leverage, and leverage is what the pole is all about. Instead, your opponent is well within the "end" of the pole, and you are using leverage/pressure to keep your opponent off-balance, to limit his actions, etc. while you maneuver for openings. This also explains why the thrust isn't the main offensive action.

[CFT]

As I see it, "gwun mo leung heung" refers to making contact and staying in contact with the opponent's weapon/body/etc. -- which makes only one sound with the initial contact. That requires a fairly close range. The WCK pole is a much closer range weapon IMO than is typically demonstrated (where the opponent beyond the end of the pole, much like fencing with the pole). At that range, you really have no leverage, and leverage is what the pole is all about. Instead, your opponent is well within the "end" of the pole, and you are using leverage/pressure to keep your opponent off-balance, to limit his actions, etc. while you maneuver for openings. This also explains why the thrust isn't the main offensive action.

Now I can see why you've written what you have so far.

I think one of the previous vids posted (Baji spear IIRC) with the padded up sparring was exactly as you described - both people beyond range of the pole/spear.

[LoneTiger108]

Would I be digressing if I asked if the overriding principle to the pole should be the maxim "gwun mo leung heung" (the pole does not make two sounds)?

This maxim encapsulates the idea that pole usage should be primarily about the attack, not block then attack, etc. If your attack carries a defense (lin da dai siu as Wan Kam Leung puts it) then all the better. I can't really see how one would "control" with the pole (compared to the empty hand techniques).

(I write with my right, but throw with my left).

Finally, someone mentions the infamous 'no two sounds' maxim!

This is connected to attacking concepts, and ideally should be implemented in pole work when drilling. Very similar to the way the wrist/forearm of your fistwork can clear the centreline for the strike. The pole does the same.

Mind you, there were some occassions where the one sound WAS the kill... and other 'training' occassions where there were limitless sounds of interacting sticks!