The Pole

[chusauli]

Tony,

More blah, blah, blah. I realize this is your job.

Phil and I always have civil discussion without bringing in any fantasy emotional baggage. Actually, Phil and I go way back in NYC - I have only respect for him. I have no desire to denigrate him, TWC, or William Cheung.

IMO, the question (interpreted as "baiting" by Phil) has not been answered. If TWC has more to the pole - how much more is there? That still hasn't been answered.

Tony, maybe you can explain your tradition's 6 pole concepts and add constructively to this conversation?

[LoneTiger108]

... Now, back on topic, would most of you consider the pole primarily a thrusting weapon or a striking weapon? And if it is a striking weapon wouldn't the pole's weight and size be a limiting factor on how it could be used in that fashion?

Thanks.

Personally, to me thrusting IS considered striking. One method to strike. So, striking is what I would primarily think a cudgel is for. But lets not forget the Shaolin origins (if you believe that) where the stick was for defence only.

The size and weight of pole normally seen, to me, are a target to achieve. It would be silly IMO to start your pole training under such stress! White wax wood sticks were used after a while, and the good old plumbing tubes were among my first learning experiences. Steadily progress, that's the key with all weaponry.

How the Wing Chun pole is 'used' has rarely been seen IMO.

[anerlich]

Tony,

I thought we had got past the HFY vs the world arguments a while back, after Benny left Garrett for Black Flag.

The forum arguments of the day are now MMA knuckleheads vs internalist Columbian airheads, and T's one man battle against evil theoretical non fighters, most of whom are so evil they don't even exist.

Still, if you want resurrect this stuff and join those morons, feel free.

[chusauli]

Andrew,

Tony is very simple. If Terence says anything about HFY (see for example the other post on where Terence is ridiculing their claims against MMA fighters at http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...t=56047&page=2), it comes back to a personal attack on me, Hawkins Cheung, and who ever else I am friends with. Its their standard transparent MO, which happens over and over again - a feeble attempt at me, so I can reel in my student's comments. Its not hard to figure it all out. Perhaps Garrett Gee tells Tony to do this, or Richard Loewenhagen tells him this, but its trash talking. Moderator, perhaps you can step in and remove this?

Again, I have no censureship on Terence Niehoff's comments - he is a grown man capable of making his own decisions and voicing his own opinions which we all have heard. He represents himself and his opinion only. He doesn't like HFY or their claims, I have nothing to do with it. Perhaps people should try to understand what is behind the nature of these claims and what are they trying to protect.

[JPinAZ]

Seriously? This again? And Robert, how old are you?

In one breath you say T is a grown man capable of making his own decisions and voicing his own opinions, but in the previous breath you make assumptions that people are telling Tony what to say. So T speaks for himself, yet you imply Tony doesn't? What a joke.

Personally, I could care less what you say as long as you keep your arguments with those that are involved and leave any 'lineage wars' alone instead of stoking the fires.
If you have a problem with something Tony says, keep it between you and him. I think it is a show of low character and little class to drag others into this, talk of 'their MO' (whomever 'their' is), etc. and then cry for moderation afterwards.
You talk about 'nature', your nature shines thru again. Maybe what Tony is talking about isn't so far from the truth...

[chusauli]

Ah, here comes JPinz! More SOP/MO!

What is so threatening about what Terence says? You can easily put him on ignore or not read his comments. He comments directly and laughs at you guys...

More to come...

[JPinAZ]

Oh Jeez, hiding behind T now?

Let me ask you back, why are you so threatened about what Tony says? If you don't like it, you could put him on ignore as well. But, if your want to continue to discuss things with him, there is no need to drag others into it, drop names, make accusations, etc. And, if you are going cry for moderation over something, maybe you shouldn't be guilty of the same things yourself.

Besides, what did Tony say that got you so upset anyway? Was he incorrect in what he said?

[duende]

Tony,

I thought we had got past the HFY vs the world arguments a while back, after Benny left Garrett for Black Flag.

The forum arguments of the day are now MMA knuckleheads vs internalist Columbian airheads, and T's one man battle against evil theoretical non fighters, most of whom are so evil they don't even exist.

Still, if you want resurrect this stuff and join those morons, feel free.

+1

Everyone comes here as individuals. Don't slander a whole group of people simply because you either have a disagreement with one person, or a statement made by one person.

[anerlich]

JP,

I brought T into this, not Robert. A mistake, probably, the last thing any of us need is T getting more attention.

As I said to all concerned, I thought we'd all got past that particular lineage war.

I'd be interested to hear any constructive comments you HFY guys have on the pole.

[duende]

JP,

I brought T into this, not Robert. A mistake, probably, the last thing any of us need is T getting more attention.

As I said to all concerned, I thought we'd all got past that particular lineage war.

I'd be interested to hear any constructive comments you HFY guys have on the pole.

We have a formal pole form, as well as a wooden dummy vs. pole drills.

In our form, one can see both thrusting and striking. And how it has benefited from technology taken from both the spear and the staff. The same can be said for our hand forms too though. For example, the tassles in the spear are used for trapping, the same way Tun Kiu is done with the hands.

The actual name for the HFYWC pole is the Hung Mun Saat Kwan. It employs both 6 1/2 point and the 3 1/2 point concepts/theories (single end or double end strategies) as well as live side/ dead side facing concepts. It originates back in the 1850's from our Hung Gun Biu ancestry.

[canglong]

Phil and I always have civil discussion without bringing in any fantasy emotional baggage. Actually, Phil and I go way back in NYC - I have only respect for him. I have no desire to denigrate him, TWC, or William Cheung.

Robert your hypocritical contradictions are without end and you are an opportunistic charlatan of the worst kind. Always talking out of both sides of your mouth. This is the crux of your problem the public Robert and the private Robert. You have and will denigrate TWC, William Cheung and anyone else you have a rift with in private (I have seen the video) and then in public you are unwilling or unable to support your preposterous claims so then and only then is when we see and hear the public Robert. Clearly two different people.

[k gledhill]

Really? Hmmm. You tell me that I should get out and see more (in a snide way, remember"cricket"?) and I point out that I've seen much, much more than you to rebut your remark. And this is your retort. Classic.

getting into a conversation of ..."yeah?, yeah!.. oh yeah? , well I did this.. oh yeah! .... yeah, well I know that more ...is childish. Your missing the point.


Snide ? no just being polite actually its not a 'well', its your a&s your heads stuck in so deeply...



'nough said terence, you get the idea

[LoneTiger108]

I like keeping on subject, as I find all this character bashing and bad vibes just a pointless distraction really. It's gone beyond funny now, so why don't everyone who wants to have a pop at someone else over trivial matters just move on to another thread!

We have a formal pole form, as well as a wooden dummy vs. pole drills.

In our form, one can see both thrusting and striking. And how it has benefited from technology taken from both the spear and the staff. The same can be said for our hand forms too though. For example, the tassles in the spear are used for trapping, the same way Tun Kiu is done with the hands.

The actual name for the HFYWC pole is the Hung Mun Saat Kwan. It employs both 6 1/2 point and the 3 1/2 point concepts/theories (single end or double end strategies) as well as live side/ dead side facing concepts. It originates back in the 1850's from our Hung Gun Biu ancestry.

Duende - The HFY pole sounds, at first instance, VERY similar to the Lee Shing Family. We also have a 3 1/2 point 'way' which I'm familiar with as a method of practice (not an actual form)

It's also very interesting that you mention Hung Gun Biu as a founder

[t_niehoff]

getting into a conversation of ..."yeah?, yeah!.. oh yeah? , well I did this.. oh yeah! .... yeah, well I know that more ...is childish. Your missing the point.

Snide ? no just being polite actually its not a 'well', its your a&s your heads stuck in so deeply...

'nough said terence, you get the idea

The point is that you don't know what you are tallking about. You only have a very superficial grasp of WCK and the pole. I haven't missed that.

[duende]

I like keeping on subject, as I find all this character bashing and bad vibes just a pointless distraction really. It's gone beyond funny now, so why don't everyone who wants to have a pop at someone else over trivial matters just move on to another thread!



Duende - The HFY pole sounds, at first instance, VERY similar to the Lee Shing Family. We also have a 3 1/2 point 'way' which I'm familiar with as a method of practice (not an actual form)

It's also very interesting that you mention Hung Gun Biu as a founder

That is interesting. Maybe someday we can meet up to discuss. I know my Sifu is considering going to the UK sometime this year. If that happens, I'll let you know. Maybe we could arrange to meet.

Does Hung Gun Biu play a role in your lineage's history as well? Forgive my ignorance, I'm not that familiar with Lee Shing WC beyond it's YM connections.