The Pole

[CFT]

LoneTiger108 - I've not been following in detail so my apologies. Are you are saying there are 2 separate pole/staff sets? The half-pole set used like a quarterstaff as seen in sifu Austin Goh's videos, and then the more "normal" 6-1/2 point pole set? Do you have a half-point movement in the latter?

Surely they are actually different weapons? The 6-1/2 point pole is trained using a long tapered pole, whereas your half-pole looks like it is uniform in cross-section and much shorter.

[LoneTiger108]

First off CFT, yes I am saying that there are two distictly different Pole forms I have seen in Wing Chun. That which I've seen from the Ip Family, and that I have seen from the Lee Family. Both are 'totally different' in look, but I do believe they are portraying the same concepts. Lee Shing, however, preferred more traditional stick plays to help new students learn prior to the heavier pole being introduced.

I personally have practiced with both. Stick fighting isn't the same as pole fighting as preferences tend to vary on 'power generation' to start with. I also have to point out that the Sum Nung Set I posted in this thread is not 'mine' or Lee Shings, and I'm sure someone from this family can enlighten us as to 'why' this set was created. On reflection, Sum Nungs Pole Set is also sligtly different from Lees & Ips.

Before I go into an explanation, I have to ask a question:

How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

One palm facing up, the other down (which one depends on your Sifu lol!) How we tend to distingush the 'half set' from the 'point set' is that the half pole tends to use the same hands, ie both palms facing down. It is only within Lee Shings pole that I have seen the practitioner then hold the pole in the middle, utilising both ends for close quarters more so than the points, where we tend to stay at one end of the pole using our longest ranges.

However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...

Another 'saying' I've heard numerous times in the Lee Family is this:

"Without the stick, the father of all weapons, a pole is of no use."

[LoneTiger108]

A few clips of my Sifus daughters and his elder students at Seni'01 can be found here:

http://www.junmo.co.uk/index.php?opt...=55&Itemid=107

Note that all of the 'stick' clips are examples of Lee Shings Stick Plays, which are obviously not to be confused with standard 6 Point & Half Pole sets.

I will try to answer questions anyone may have, or you can always contact Jun Mo directly through the site.

[k gledhill]

I hate to rain on your event ...but the pole videos...thats not vt pole, its made up , from what ? who knows.

[LoneTiger108]

I hate to rain on your event ...but the pole videos...thats not vt pole, its made up , from what ? who knows.

Thanks for that k, I wasn't expecting such a b&w response so soon, especially from someone who, again, failed to even read what I wrote.

If only I knew what 'vt pole' was?! I don't believe any of the 'stick plays' here will be familiar to you as I did say:

"Note that all of the 'stick' clips are examples of Lee Shings Stick Plays, which are obviously not to be confused with standard 6 Point & Half Pole sets."

One thing wrong with people like yourself is that you throw out wild 'thats not vt' comments when something doesn't live up to 'your' image. Again, I am surprised at a WSL student being so ignorant but I hold no grudges and make no false claims.

The stick plays are real. They are not 'made up'. Austin Gohs Pole Form is as close to Lee Shings image as Joseph Lees. And Lee Shing knew WSL quite well apparently, not the same generation maybe but they had mutual respect. Sifu Joseph Man (who's knowledge you're dismissing) will be celebrating 30 years teaching next year, and his style of teaching has changed many times over this period. An elder to Austin and Joe Lee and even to Joseph Cheng and most others you would have heard of (if you researched us at all)

A great thing about being taught how to express yourself through Wing Chun by a known Master is that you can teach pretty much what you like, when you like and how you like. As long as it can be exlained.

Which is why I asked for questions, not narrow minded 'knee jerk' reactions to something you're obviously not familiar with...

[k gledhill]

My apologies ...I lived in london for 14 years , i know all the names mentioned, Ive met and observed them too...Austin Goh kung fu clown amongst the local's ...even gives diplomas out, lmaorotf ....

you yave "frogus in da wellus" syndrome ...ask your teacher about the chinese story of the frog in a well & the cricket...

Your arrogance suits your situation. an arrogant froggy ....ribbet

[LoneTiger108]

My apologies ...I lived in london for 14 years , i know all the names mentioned, Ive met and observed them too...Austin Goh kung fu clown amongst the local's ...even gives diplomas out, lmaorotf ....

you yave "frogus in da wellus" syndrome ...ask your teacher about the chinese story of the frog in a well & the cricket...

Your arrogance suits your situation. an arrogant froggy ....ribbet

There's that word again! You need a mirror as you obviously have had the blinkers on whilst writing your own 'arrogant' comments I'm afraid. Please feel free to explain how my posts are arrogant? (ribbet)

So what if you've 'observed' people from your 'time in London'! WTF?? Do you KNOW anyone from Lee Shings 1st generation?? Better still, have you met my Sifu and 'observed' his teachings? How has your Sifu influenced your attitude towards others? I suppose anyone who doesn't 'look' like Ip Man isn't Wing Chun then and that will include everyone from the mainland too lmao!

I have an idea for you k (Kevin?) Why don't you ask my Sifu yourself about your little story, as I find it a shame you even know such crap and obviously have an interest in these folklore lessons more than learning anything new about Wing Chun curriculae. Everyone told me that the 'family' was dying, and it's narrow minded insult throwers like you who are helping this happen.

Well, make that call and pay him a visit next time you're in London and I'm sure he will let you watch a class, take notes, ask any questions you like! Hell, maybe he'll even let you have a spar or something, knowing his no-nonsense approach!

Most of the people I've met like you k became his students, as they couldn't even answer his simplest questions. Many of them also had more than 15 years experience in Wing Chun, with 'many' other Sifu, so any judgement should be left to you actually putting yourself out just the once to find out for yourself. Better still ask Sifu Potter to explain how he knows my Sifu (you must know him too right?)

[Liddel]

How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

Id hope one would understand the Ying Yang relationship from the hand form which would then lead into the pole....despite the practical differences.

But for me in a nutshell - one hand drives while the other steers.
The relationship is important for me because if both hands are not used in unity and you dont understand the Ying Yang relationship you can stiffle your own actions.

I.E The lead hand can block the energy both hands should be sending down then pole. etc

However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...

This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one.

Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move.

This relationship of the palms facing the pole, lines up your bodies power lines (similar to power lines in a punch) with the pole. A different direction of the palms with regard to the pole and you lessen and at certain angles loose the ability to move the pole tip IME.

This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

For me when putting the pole out if i have applied the right energy and the tip moves apon contact this creates many tiny hits (or at least more than one).

I would make a piont that this is NOT due to using a pole made from light wood - our pole is a heavy hard wood, so training right in the Arrow horse and Dan Kwan drills early on is crucial to developing good power to put into the pole.

This is why people with the same style as what ive been taught would refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the LDBK as machine gun - because of the mulitiple hits and power you can release with the pole.

Crude analogy but it gets the point across IMO.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one...

Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move...

...This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

DREW

I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

It's interesting to see how you interpret the Yum Yeurng hands, and its refreshing to see someone who obviously had this idea early on in their training. I also like the 'crude analogy', although I do think its a realistic one!

Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?

[Liddel]

I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

Thats cool mate, no harm no foul.

Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?

Just after learning the form i was at the stage of applying actions to dummies, Yes.
Shortly after was when i reluctantly gave it up in favour of the BJD.

I used the Mook Jong we use for H2H training, using the same arms etc.....

Sifu told me if i break it, i can have it.... LOL Its a mean Dummy, strong.

I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour

Im a bit gutted i couldnt continue with the LDB, but i do really enjoy the BJD...

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.

Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour

Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew. Mind you, I still feel so young among these forums. Being new to all this discussion lark works better for me when I'm reading familiar experiences. I get too defensive sometimes but I'm always going to be a Wing Chun student.

This forum must've seen some things over the years and I still want to contribute when I can, and about things I know and have seen for myself. I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

I feel that open chat about the stick and pole is a less 'serious' exchange. Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...

[Liddel]

Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.

This one was hanging from the roof and you thrust the pole through it, as you get better with your aim - we would make it smaller down to about a few cm in diam...

Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew.

Ive seen you in some vids on Youtube (95% sure). While we have different applications with our VT, it seems the style of learning is quite similar. Perhaps it because of the way our teachers were taught TO teach ....

Whats Lee Shings lineage exactly ?
Ive seen some different explanations on different sites....

I still havent asked my teacher about him. Theres not many old timers Sifu doesnt know

I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

Like i said functional with a traditional flavour... after learning the form and making the actions more second nature, we begin to do semi sparring drills against a pole etc. Then we began Chi Do training which is very much like soft sparring at first working up to harder contact. Intent is always the same, to hit the oppenent, unless isolating some aspect of application specifically.

I made wooden Do from a hard wood with brass hook fixtures for contact training like Chi Do. Sifu is agaisnt using fake metal ones cuase the sound is supposed to only be heard when in actual combat...bit traditional in that respect.

He once told me that he had some Do made from the suspension of a vehicle back in HK. He got rid of them after they had been used for a while.
His idea is that even the hardest material after some 3000 hits will start to become soft and briitle. When you use a weapon for preserving life its better to be safe than sorry. So for the most part we spar with wood and do forms with metal for dexterity and strenght...extra weight etc...

Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...

Sifu used to put some material on the tip of the pole when i would train the form and Dan Kwan. Its easier to see if your moving the tip enough with the material flapping when your energy reaches it....

Is this what you used the flag for... or do you mean holding a flag itself ?

Curious
DREW