The Pole

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Drew..

Yes, same old, same old.. I see no point in covering old ground over and over again and typing for it's own sake.. Sadly others do, and do it over and over and over......

I need to listen to this. But a certain non-fighting knucklehead keeps getting my goat.

[YungChun]

I need to listen to this. But a certain non-fighting knucklehead keeps getting my goat.

I know me too.. I am going to work on responding less to his BS.. He has some good points but then goes off the deep end at some point. Impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion with him so what's the point...?

It's easy to see what's reasonable here... Drew's last post and what is not reasonable...T's post he addressed...

[Phil Redmond]

I know me too.. I am going to work on responding less to his BS.. He has some good points but then goes off the deep end at some point. Impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion with him so what's the point...?

It's easy to see what's reasonable here... Drew's last post and what is not reasonable...T's post he addressed...

I'm just going to ignore him. He won't have a platform with me. What others do is their prerogative.

[k gledhill]

Yes., that's what I have been talking about. It's not poking with the tip like a spear but striking with a swinging action.

I tried to respond but just started to laugh give it up T stick to your mantra....you dont even understand the system from your posts.

The system is out there, you just havent met it yet....

[Phil Redmond]

I tried to respond but just started to laugh give it up T stick to your mantra....you dont even understand the system from your posts.

The system is out there, you just havent met it yet....

That was priceless.

[YungChun]

I tried to respond but just started to laugh give it up T stick to your mantra....you dont even understand the system from your posts.

The system is out there, you just havent met it yet....

Well to him WCK is about control first.. So I guess T thinks the pole is for tying folks to it (safety first)...then you beat them up.

[t_niehoff]

Seems like this place doesnt change much...

Im curious why we see surfers practicing getting up on shore, sand doesnt give the same feedback as a moving wave.

Because they are beginners -- and we often learn in unrealistic environments, particularly when the realistic environment is chaotic.

Howabout why golfers have a practice swing when grass isnt the same as hitting the ball, or practice swinging with two clubs in hand which is a popular one at the club i belong to.

Are you serious? Why do people have "practice swings"? To loosen up, get in a groove, etc. We're talking about how to learn and develop skill and you bring up "practice swings"?

Why does my friend whos competed in commonwealth games and played pro ball for the Raiders run in a straight line with a tire tied to his waist for practice, no feedback from other players.

Conditioning.

Seriously, you do know the difference between skill building and conditioning, right?

I know the reasons and they are fairly obvious, which begs the question why treat the Chun any different. Many other sports and fighting arts have isolted drills as part of thier training.

Yes, they do. They have drills for conditioning and drills for skill development. As for the latter, you do that through what is termed "specificity" -- which boils down to practicing the skill itself to develop the skill. If you "knew the reasons" then you'd know this.

Forms are not the only type of training wing Chun advocates, far from it. and need i point out that i dont think anyone here is saying that either T.

I know that no one is saying that they are the only form of training -- my point is that they are not training at all. They are a waste of time.

You may have your thinking cap on, but the 1 to 1 peak is narrowing your view IMO.

I think VT training is limited in its traditional form, but those who walk that path and augment / add on the more modern training practices after attaining skill in the basics actually have a better more stable base to build on IME.

You are assuming taht people "attain skill with the basics" through traditional training, and they simply don't. You attain skill by practicing that skill, not by not practicing that skill.

GSP please stand up LOL

DREW

GSP, like all other good MMA fighters, developed his skill from modern training methods. When fighter 1 does TMA + MMA training and succeeds in MMA, that doesn't prove his TMA had any significance, particularly in light of how fighters fighters with no TMA + MMA training also succeed. This is just another case of people using poor reasoning to reach the conclusions they want.

[chusauli]

^^
That adds a different complexion to it. Thanks for the info.
So IS there a preferred attacking technique?

Sorry guys, but I do see patients and it gets busy. The pole follows WCK's ideas. You have a Mun Gwun (Asking pole) - it is a strike or a stab. Then you follow up with multiple strikes.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm sorry to have not posted but I've been too busy trying to see things from others perspectives and research every other pole form out there by following links to Youtube, THEN I'm trying to sift through the less repetative responses to actually see if there is ANYONE here who has actuallyu been taught the WING CHUN pole form directly from a reputable weaponry teacher?

I find it strange that nobody has even the slightest idea why we do use the right hand in the front, and not the left?

I find it so funny that theres confusion as to the use of a 'dim', whether linear or circular!

I am basically trying to highlight that there seems to be 7 pages of advice on what the WC pole is NOT good for, and what OTHER pole forms are out there and how bloody great THEY are!

What I considered to be a good debatable subject matter has actually been a complete waste of time...

AGAIN

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry guys, but I do see patients and it gets busy. The pole follows WCK's ideas. You have a Mun Gwun (Asking pole) - it is a strike or a stab. Then you follow up with multiple strikes.

I don't like saying this BUT that is probably the worst bit of advice I've seen relating to the Wing Chun Pole.

With respect Robert, as an exceptionally talented researcher I'm sure that you know just a little bit more about the Wing Chun pole than you let on. And when you don't know just admit it and move on!

There is always something new to learn. Even for you.

FWIW Mun Gwun isn't the most favoured attack of the pole by far, it's the 1st point, which is why it's the first set in the form.

[chusauli]

Jim,

I will try to answer as best I can..

Well you said earlier the "pole" was from the North... Is what you refer to above a Gwan?

Spear is Northern, but when it went down to the South, they took off the spear head and played with the staff.

Is the Gwan from the South?

The various arts of WCK, CLF, Hung Ga are, and the pole fighting reflects that Southern flavor. Northern systems use the Gwan, but it is generally the double headed one. Otherwise they use the spear shaft and practice spearing with it (go look at the youtube stuff I posted links to).

Is the Gwan WCK uses heavier than a "real Gwan"..

Yes, the ones used in training the pole are generally not used in fighting. The fighting pole is the lighter treated wax wood pole - it can be the same length, but generally 7 ' 2 " in length. The heavy pole we train with are akin to a suburito, rather than a bokken. A Suburito is a swinging practice sword, often heavier than a sword. A bokken is a wood practice sword, but more approximate to shinken (live blades).

Do you think the linear nature of the form is wrong?

The "form" is just a bunch of the exercises thrown together that summarizes the actual pole training...it is not a fighting form, but a toolbox, like SNT... its an aid to memory, but that is not the fighting. Exercises are the mechanics, the fighting requires movement.

Do you think WCK is mainly a linear art or something else?

WCK is not a linear art, but actively makes use of, in classical terms, "capturing the centerline", "controlling centerline", "changing centerline". The pole must be practiced in moving laterally, anteriorly, diagonally, and in all directions. Most people are robotic and lack pole knowledge passed on to them. Most WCK people's pole ability is pretty mediocre.

A bokken has little in common with the Gwan in size or weight.

The bokken is more like the fighting pole if you are still using that analogy.

Hope this helps...

[Vajramusti]

I'm sorry to have not posted but I've been too busy trying to see things from others perspectives and research every other pole form out there by following links to Youtube, THEN I'm trying to sift through the less repetative responses to actually see if there is ANYONE here who has actuallyu been taught the WING CHUN pole form directly from a reputable weaponry teacher?

(((!!!!???what's the point? I have...))joy

I find it strange that nobody has even the slightest idea why we do use the right hand in the front, and not the left?

(((I practice on both sides- I try to be ambidextrous))Joy

I find it so funny that theres confusion as to the use of a 'dim', whether linear or circular!

((De[ends on context-lines and circles- sometimes a coordination of both! este possible!))joy

I am basically trying to highlight that there seems to be 7 pages of advice on what the WC pole is NOT good for, and what OTHER pole forms are out there and how bloody great THEY are!

What I considered to be a good debatable subject matter has actually been a complete waste of time...

AGAIN

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Debate and discussion are different things---you really don't expect sensible discussion here- do you? Much of what happens here is self stroking!

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

I don't like saying this BUT that is probably the worst bit of advice I've seen relating to the Wing Chun Pole.

With respect Robert, as an exceptionally talented researcher I'm sure that you know just a little bit more about the Wing Chun pole than you let on. And when you don't know just admit it and move on!

There is always something new to learn. Even for you.

FWIW Mun Gwun isn't the most favoured attack of the pole by far, it's the 1st point, which is why it's the first set in the form.

Real stuff is real simple.

What I said speaks volumes. Notice I did not say you block or stick first?

You strike or stab, the opponent moves, and then its over (ideally).

Musashi did this, Illustrisimo did this, other famous escrimadors did this. Look at the African tribe stick fighting - that's exactly what they are doing.

Mun Gwun is enganyo - feinting of the FMA, also like prakcion (fraction of a beat). You don't block and lock with a pole... you strike. There is a flow, delay, differentiation of timing, interception, etc. The eyes must be sensitive. Its all dynamic.

I don't like to talk about techniques - those are examples in time. Also, this is not the medium to learn from - you have to feel it. Painfully.

And personally, I like to leave the mark of "C".

[YungChun]

Jim,

I will try to answer as best I can..




Spear is Northern, but when it went down to the South, they took off the spear head and played with the staff.



The various arts of WCK, CLF, Hung Ga are, and the pole fighting reflects that Southern flavor. Northern systems use the Gwan, but it is generally the double headed one. Otherwise they use the spear shaft and practice spearing with it (go look at the youtube stuff I posted links to).



Yes, the ones used in training the pole are generally not used in fighting. The fighting pole is the lighter treated wax wood pole - it can be the same length, but generally 7 ' 2 " in length. The heavy pole we train with are akin to a suburito, rather than a bokken. A Suburito is a swinging practice sword, often heavier than a sword. A bokken is a wood practice sword, but more approximate to shinken (live blades).



The "form" is just a bunch of the exercises thrown together that summarizes the actual pole training...it is not a fighting form, but a toolbox, like SNT... its an aid to memory, but that is not the fighting. Exercises are the mechanics, the fighting requires movement.



WCK is not a linear art, but actively makes use of, in classical terms, "capturing the centerline", "controlling centerline", "changing centerline". The pole must be practiced in moving laterally, anteriorly, diagonally, and in all directions. Most people are robotic and lack pole knowledge passed on to them. Most WCK people's pole ability is pretty mediocre.



The bokken is more like the fighting pole if you are still using that analogy.

Hope this helps...

Thanks Robert..

I see WCK expression/use more like a rapier than a katana..

But in any case I am sure you wouldn't say it doesn't matter how this form or any other form in WCK is done...

[Liddel]

Terrence You jump contexts like a hooker jumps johns. Keep it up this place is better for it judging by the mood

I find it strange that nobody has even the slightest idea why we do use the right hand in the front, and not the left?

Spencer Lok Yiu's line (which ive learnt) should teach the student about which hand predominantly drives the pole and also which hand predominantly drives the power. This depends on which hand your dominant with in everyday life and thats what lends us towards teaching a student how to use the pole and on which side. Beleive it or not but there should be some lefties out there doing the pole although ive never seen them.

As far as were concerned its not just one way for everyone.

Sadly i believe the VT pole is lost and if i were to believe my teacher who learnt from Lok Yiu and YM direct, there are less than a handfull of people alive that have actually been taught by people who attained skill with the Lok Dim Boon. Regardless there are people that give me hope. Respect to Sifu Bayer for one.

Anyway thats my fix of forum Fu for this year.

Good luck with training guys, regardless of your training methods its all character building and mad fun.

DREW