The Pole

[chusauli]

Personally, I feel the name "Luk Dim Boon Gwun" is misleading.

Everyone is always wondering what the half point is.

Some consider it the thrust, others consider it the butt. IMO, I consider it the circular movement, as that prevails in all movements.

The swinging that Master Goh is doing is alien to me and looks more like some southern Cern Tou Gwun (Double Head Staff) movements. It is more reminicent of the Hang Jie Pang (Traveller's Pole/Waddy) - aka Monkey Staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oAQVR8g0is

BTW, this is Hung Ga's 6.5 point staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OCeghHm8Js

In Southern Fist, we also regard the Hung Fut Left Hand Mad Demon pole as a great set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOQ5cX993-U

As you can see, the functional moves are all there as in WCK's pole.

[chusauli]

Since the single head staff came from the spear, I thought some of you would want to see the spear. Since I studied Hung Gar, Lama and a smattering of CLF, I can offer you some insights. Spear uses the key words Lan (Obstruct), Na (Control) and Zha (Stabbing). Most of the emphasis is on power and travel of that focus through the spear. What the WCK people were lacking big time was this power. This is a good example of the relaxed power of the spear or staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0pb9...eature=related

Here are some famous spear sets -

CLF left right 13 spear Spear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPUIn...eature=related

Hung Ga Yang Family Spear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0ccB1DLwQ


Tai Ji Spear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7-TC...eature=related

Northern Spears are better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i04tu...eature=related

This is how Ba Ji's 6 harmony spear is trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5OsH...eature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyByH...eature=related

WCK brothers - step up to the plate! Your 6.5 staff is at the 6:30 position and needs some viagra! LOL!

[t_niehoff]

Since the single head staff came from the spear . . .

Yeah, that's what they say, but I don't believe it.

[chusauli]

The legends are the single head staff is a spear without the point and the tactics resemble the spear. Tan Gwun is equal to the Lan of the spear, Fuk is equal to the Na of the spear and Biu Gwun is equivalent to the Zha of the spear.

The spear is mostly a Northern weapon and used with the left hand facing forward. Of course, WCK is a civilian art, developed by Southern folk, and the pole is right hand facing forward. I am in no way suggesting WCK was a battlefield martial art, nor comes from temples.

Somehow, the spear was adapted in staff work. In military martial arts, there needed to be battle formations and keeping in line. The civilian spear/staff is not as orderly, and is given to flowery displays.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .I have to disagree. The sequence from 1st to 6th point is as important as learning the sets to SLT in the correct order. They all have distinct purpose. . . . .

I respectfully have to disagree. The "sets" can be done in any order. In fact sets in any form should be practiced separately over and over. And what about Gu Lo Wing Chun which doesn't have forms?

[Phil Redmond]

Having seen Leung Ting's 6.5 point pole set, I would say its very much the same as WSL's or Chu Shang Tin's set. He does use a different set of 6.5 keywords:
Cheung, Kam, Tiu, But, Chou, Tan, Boon Jie...

William Cheung's stands out as a unique set, but the grip is so wide and shows an inherent danger. I would say Cheung Sifu's knives are better than his pole.

Have you seen the "real" set? Your statement is based on very limited personal contact with Cheung Sifu. Your Chusauli Wing Chun could be the best of all. But I can't comment on it. How can I make a comment on something I have no inside knowledge of?
I've learned to not make blanket statements without inside knowledge, but that's just me.
Check your PM

[t_niehoff]

The legends are the single head staff is a spear without the point and the tactics resemble the spear. Tan Gwun is equal to the Lan of the spear, Fuk is equal to the Na of the spear and Biu Gwun is equivalent to the Zha of the spear.

The spear is mostly a Northern weapon and used with the left hand facing forward. Of course, WCK is a civilian art, developed by Southern folk, and the pole is right hand facing forward. I am in no way suggesting WCK was a battlefield martial art, nor comes from temples.

Somehow, the spear was adapted in staff work. In military martial arts, there needed to be battle formations and keeping in line. The civilian spear/staff is not as orderly, and is given to flowery displays.

Yes, I've heard that before, I just don't buy it. I think that perhaps some people took their spear traning and tried to adapt that to the pole, but the pole is a very different weapon than the spear and can't be successfully used like a spear.

The spear's sharp point is what makes the thrust with the spear its primary offensive action -- take away that sharpened point, and you have "defanged" the spear, rid it of most of its offensive potential. Also, the spear because it is a sharpened thrusting weapon (like the epee) uses little power and relies of quick stabs. So, if you use a pole/staff like a spear, you are only using a defanged spear and will have little power.

In my view, the major offensive actions with the pole don't involve thrusting the pole to strike with the "point" -- which is easily countered and not very effective.

[chusauli]

I respectfully have to disagree. The "sets" can be done in any order. In fact sets in any form should be practiced separately over and over. And what about Gu Lo Wing Chun which doesn't have forms?

When I learneed the Gu Lao pole as taught to me by my sifu, he basically had me learn all the points in a separate manner and then it was taught in combination. Much like how Escrima is taught. We didn't have set motions.

[m1k3]

example of US Army short pole training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopvQTbOOxQ

[chusauli]

Have you seen the "real" set? Your statement is based on very limited personal contact with Cheung Sifu. Your Chusauli Wing Chun could be the best of all. But I can't comment on it. How can I make a comment on something I have no inside knowledge of?
I've learned to not make blanket statements without inside knowledge, but that's just me.
Check your PM

I don't know if I have seen any "real set"... I learned the pole set from Rick Spain, one of Cheung Sifu's top students in Australia. I'd say that was pretty real. The only minor criticism is that the space of the grip is too wide as seen in Cheung Sifu's Black Belt DVD and Ohara book. That's all and IMO, it can be easily modified, but I guess then it's be "modified TWC". I have no blanket statement, but if you are suggesting that TWC has some "reserved for indoor disciples version, and we taught it wrong on purpose..." I feel very sorry for the masses who have all the alleged "fake" stuff. I mean, how does it feel to study TWC for decades and now be told we learned outside BS? All the instructors but you and your partner have the real deal and we all learned public trash?

I don't think my WCK is best of all, its only best for me at this moment, now. I gave up all thoughts of superiority for reality. I always follow Hawkins' question to me, "Can you do it?" This of course, permutates into all facets of life and training, what all martial artists should do - Can I do this? Can I condition myself better? Can I be a better teacher? Can I articulate better? Can I improve? Its all a process of being a work in process, and the honest conversations you have with yourself.

BTW, I do not call my WCK "Chu Sau Lei WCK". My students or outsiders call it that. I just refer to it as WCK, taught in my curriculum, and using my teaching methodology. Its basically composed of Yip Man and Gu Lao WCK systems passed on from my instructors, taught through my teaching methodology and curriculum, and I allow my students to express their own style. The appellation is common in HK and China. I do not claim any unknown founders or trace my art to Shaolin or other secret factions, have fancy titles, claim enlightenment or be a living Buddha, lay claim to a secret battlefield art, or have any special tattoos or requirements to have tattoos, nor is there a "public" or "private" version. I'm just a martial artist sick of the BS in TCMA.

So Phil, is there a real TWC pole and we have all been fed BS?

[chusauli]

Yes, I've heard that before, I just don't buy it. I think that perhaps some people took their spear traning and tried to adapt that to the pole, but the pole is a very different weapon than the spear and can't be successfully used like a spear.

The spear's sharp point is what makes the thrust with the spear its primary offensive action -- take away that sharpened point, and you have "defanged" the spear, rid it of most of its offensive potential. Also, the spear because it is a sharpened thrusting weapon (like the epee) uses little power and relies of quick stabs. So, if you use a pole/staff like a spear, you are only using a defanged spear and will have little power.

In my view, the major offensive actions with the pole don't involve thrusting the pole to strike with the "point" -- which is easily countered and not very effective.

Those are some good observations. Yes, polework is modified and blunted spear work.

[ittokaos]

I don't know if I have seen any "real set"... I learned the pole set from Rick Spain, one of Cheung Sifu's top students in Australia. I'd say that was pretty real. The only minor criticism is that the space of the grip is too wide as seen in Cheung Sifu's Black Belt DVD and Ohara book. That's all and IMO, it can be easily modified, but I guess then it's be "modified TWC". I have no blanket statement, but if you are suggesting that TWC has some "reserved for indoor disciples version, and we taught it wrong on purpose..." I feel very sorry for the masses who have all the alleged "fake" stuff. I mean, how does it feel to study TWC for decades and now be told we learned outside BS? All the instructors but you and your partner have the real deal and we all learned public trash?

I don't think my WCK is best of all, its only best for me at this moment, now. I gave up all thoughts of superiority for reality. I always follow Hawkins' question to me, "Can you do it?" This of course, permutates into all facets of life and training, what all martial artists should do - Can I do this? Can I condition myself better? Can I be a better teacher? Can I articulate better? Can I improve? Its all a process of being a work in process, and the honest conversations you have with yourself.

BTW, I do not call my WCK "Chu Sau Lei WCK". My students or outsiders call it that. I just refer to it as WCK, taught in my curriculum, and using my teaching methodology. Its basically composed of Yip Man and Gu Lao WCK systems passed on from my instructors, taught through my teaching methodology and curriculum, and I allow my students to express their own style. The appellation is common in HK and China. I do not claim any unknown founders or trace my art to Shaolin or other secret factions, have fancy titles, claim enlightenment or be a living Buddha, lay claim to a secret battlefield art, or have any special tattoos or requirements to have tattoos, nor is there a "public" or "private" version. I'm just a martial artist sick of the BS in TCMA.

So Phil, is there a real TWC pole and we have all been fed BS?

Awesome. Thumbs up on that one Mr Chu.

[chusauli]

example of US Army short pole training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopvQTbOOxQ

This one is pretty cool, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eI2Ef7sH8c&NR=1

Old time FMA guys used it during WWII...

[m1k3]

When I was in boot camp one of the drills we did was similar to a short form.

it was slash, stab, step forward with the back foot and do a butt stroke which is kind of like an uppercut using the butt of the rifle, a butt smash to the face followed by stepping forward whith the back foot and doing the slash and continue on.

Oohrah!

[m1k3]

O yeah, this will make t. happy, we also did live sparring using pugel sticks. One on One, two on one, two on two and armed against unarmed. This was one of the few parts of boot camp that was fun.