The Pole

[t_niehoff]

Single-headed pole fighting starts at 2:17 into the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdhU3-6SNfs

The pole is the pole. You notice the pole isn't used like a blunted spear.

[t_niehoff]

When I was in boot camp one of the drills we did was similar to a short form.

it was slash, stab, step forward with the back foot and do a butt stroke which is kind of like an uppercut using the butt of the rifle, a butt smash to the face followed by stepping forward whith the back foot and doing the slash and continue on.

Oohrah!

Which makes sense since you are training for bayonette fighting.

[chusauli]

Looks like Tapado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_A6tDBIzg

[YungChun]

And you're equating that to the Gwan?

Do you think you could wield the Gwan like they do the "sticks" in the video?

Puleeeese..get real.

[Phil Redmond]

I don't know if I have seen any "real set"... I learned the pole set from Rick Spain, one of Cheung Sifu's top students in Australia. I'd say that was pretty real. The only minor criticism is that the space of the grip is too wide as seen in Cheung Sifu's Black Belt DVD and Ohara book. That's all and IMO, it can be easily modified, but I guess then it's be "modified TWC". I have no blanket statement, but if you are suggesting that TWC has some "reserved for indoor disciples version, and we taught it wrong on purpose..." I feel very sorry for the masses who have all the alleged "fake" stuff. I mean, how does it feel to study TWC for decades and now be told we learned outside BS? All the instructors but you and your partner have the real deal and we all learned public trash?

I don't think my WCK is best of all, its only best for me at this moment, now. I gave up all thoughts of superiority for reality. I always follow Hawkins' question to me, "Can you do it?" This of course, permutates into all facets of life and training, what all martial artists should do - Can I do this? Can I condition myself better? Can I be a better teacher? Can I articulate better? Can I improve? Its all a process of being a work in process, and the honest conversations you have with yourself.

BTW, I do not call my WCK "Chu Sau Lei WCK". My students or outsiders call it that. I just refer to it as WCK, taught in my curriculum, and using my teaching methodology. Its basically composed of Yip Man and Gu Lao WCK systems passed on from my instructors, taught through my teaching methodology and curriculum, and I allow my students to express their own style. The appellation is common in HK and China. I do not claim any unknown founders or trace my art to Shaolin or other secret factions, have fancy titles, claim enlightenment or be a living Buddha, lay claim to a secret battlefield art, or have any special tattoos or requirements to have tattoos, nor is there a "public" or "private" version. I'm just a martial artist sick of the BS in TCMA.

So Phil, is there a real TWC pole and we have all been fed BS?

Weak attempt at baiting.
I never said that people were taught wrong. What I can say is that there is more.

[Phil Redmond]

When I was in boot camp one of the drills we did was similar to a short form.

it was slash, stab, step forward with the back foot and do a butt stroke which is kind of like an uppercut using the butt of the rifle, a butt smash to the face followed by stepping forward whith the back foot and doing the slash and continue on.

Oohrah!

I liked the horizontal butt stroke from boot camp.
Oorah

[t_niehoff]

Looks like Tapado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_A6tDBIzg

Yup. The pole is the pole. When people REALLLY fight with the pole, they figure out pretty quickly what works, what doesn't work, etc. and that is the same for everyone, across cultures, etc. In other words, to make the pole work we all must do the same fundamental things. It's only when theoreticians and nonfghters get into the act that things go awry and nonsense creeps in, then the nonsense gets ritualized, then become dogma, and so on.

[t_niehoff]

And you're equating that to the Gwan?

Do you think you could wield the Gwan like they do the "sticks" in the video?

Puleeeese..get real.

Let's see you go FIGHT, really FIGHT -- like at a Dog Brothers gathering --with the pole like you BELIEVE you can.

This is the root of the problem: people who aren't DOING it (successfully fighting with the pole), believing they know how to because they believe they "understand" the concepts, and they teach others their non-fighting with the pole, using unrealistic training which only reinforces their beliefs. The blind leading the blind.

Then when the see people really fight with the pole, and it doesn't "look" like their CONCEPTION (their imaginary polefighting), they say things like "get real".

Ironic, isn't it? People who never fight with the pole telling others to "get real".

[goju]

Let's see you go FIGHT, really FIGHT -- like at a Dog Brothers gathering --with the pole like you BELIEVE you can.

This is the root of the problem: people who aren't DOING it (successfully fighting with the pole), believing they know how to because they believe they "understand" the concepts, and they teach others their non-fighting with the pole, using unrealistic training which only reinforces their beliefs. The blind leading the blind.

Then when the see people really fight with the pole, and it doesn't "look" like their CONCEPTION (their imaginary polefighting), they say things like "get real".

Ironic, isn't it? People who never fight with the pole telling others to "get real".

yes why doesnt anybody there are plenty of pole fighting championships out there

[t_niehoff]

yes why doesnt anybody there are plenty of pole fighting championships out there

So, you think that if there aren't organized "championships" that you can't do pole fighting?

And, I guess you think that you can learn how to really use (fight with) the pole by not fighting with the pole.

Or, that people with absolutley no experience fighting with the pole really "understand" it?

Gotcha.

[CFT]

Yup. The pole is the pole. When people REALLLY fight with the pole, they figure out pretty quickly what works, what doesn't work, etc. and that is the same for everyone, across cultures, etc. In other words, to make the pole work we all must do the same fundamental things. It's only when theoreticians and nonfghters get into the act that things go awry and nonsense creeps in, then the nonsense gets ritualized, then become dogma, and so on.

Just interested in what you think these fundamental things are, because it sounds similar to the "technique vs. concept" argument.

Superficially it looks very different to WCK pole work because the weapon is a different weight and length. But (in the Tapado vid) there is an obvious "fencing" element to it which looked similar to what Philipp Bayer does in one of his pole drill videos - displacing the opponents weapon and fightling for the line.

[CFT]

The spear's sharp point is what makes the thrust with the spear its primary offensive action -- take away that sharpened point, and you have "defanged" the spear, rid it of most of its offensive potential. Also, the spear because it is a sharpened thrusting weapon (like the epee) uses little power and relies of quick stabs. So, if you use a pole/staff like a spear, you are only using a defanged spear and will have little power.

OK, an armchair theorist's arguments:

The longer and heavier counters the nimble and deadly (because of the metal point) spear with range and momentum. The lighter spear is more easily displaced by the heavier pole.

In my view, the major offensive actions with the pole don't involve thrusting the pole to strike with the "point" -- which is easily countered and not very effective.

Blunt force trauma is still trauma.

[goju]

So, you think that if there aren't organized "championships" that you can't do pole fighting?

And, I guess you think that you can learn how to really use (fight with) the pole by not fighting with the pole.

Or, that people with absolutley no experience fighting with the pole really "understand" it?

Gotcha.

yes there are not exacty venues for pole fighting (im sure this comes as quite a shock to you) and post people have never had to defend themselves with a staff either so your point is pretty much rediculous

but keep going your arm chair warrior diatribes are amusing to say the least

[CFT]

but keep going your arm chair warrior diatribes are amusing to say the least

I think you've got the wrong person. I'M the armchair warrior!

[m1k3]

I could be all wrong but the WC pole methods in the form look to me like the way you would use a pike or a long heavy spear. The thrusting methods, the foot work and the 45 degree pivioting look like they were designed to be used in a formation by mutliple people trained to thrust pivot and step on command.

A good comparison would be to look at the baton and shield training of riot police who are trained to move in unison to back up and control crowds.

Just my 2 cents.