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Thread: The Pole

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    OK, an armchair theorist's arguments:

    The longer and heavier counters the nimble and deadly (because of the metal point) spear with range and momentum. The lighter spear is more easily displaced by the heavier pole.
    Look at it this way, take two swords, a heavy dull one like a wooden bokken and light, sharp one, like a rapier. Does it make sense to use a bokken like a rapier? They are two very different weapons.

    Blunt force trauma is still trauma.
    If you had a bokken, would poking your opponent with the tip be your action of choice since "blunt force trauma is blunt force trauma" or would your offensive action of choice be to bring the body of the weapon down on his head?

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    I could be all wrong but the WC pole methods in the form look to me like the way you would use a pike or a long heavy spear. The thrusting methods, the foot work and the 45 degree pivioting look like they were designed to be used in a formation by mutliple people trained to thrust pivot and step on command.

    A good comparison would be to look at the baton and shield training of riot police who are trained to move in unison to back up and control crowds.

    Just my 2 cents.
    The pole form doesn't show you how to use the pole -- how the pole looks in pole fighting any more than the SNT shows you how WCK looks in fighting. All the form does is link the various yau dim (important points).

    BTW, is this the sort of thing you are talking about:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gaih-zJgFng

    The problem is that people who can't fight with the pole INTERPRET the forms based on what they PRECONCEIVE pole fighting to be like.
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 02-12-2010 at 08:04 AM.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    The pole form doesn't show you how to use the pole -- how the pole looks in pole fighting any more than the SNT shows you how WCK looks in fighting. All the form does is link the various yau dim (important points).

    The problem is that people who can't fight with the pole INTERPRET the forms based on what they PRECONCEIVE pole fighting to be like.
    Uhhh, no. That is not what I am saying at all. I have no idea what pole fighting should look like and to be honest don't really care.

    What I am commenting on is the similarities of those movements to movements I have trained in while in the military. There are similarities to close order drill as it is currently trained, which is used to train coordinated movement in formation and bayonet training I received in using the rifle as a heavy but short pole like weapon (with or without the bayonet) and if you look at old military manuals how the bayonet was used when muskets were the primary weapon of the infantry.

    As you so often point out effective training is effective training and the skills will look the same for techniques used in actual fighting no matter what the source.

  4. #214
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    Actually I was thinking of this post and several others like it.

    k gledhill
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    Uhhh, no. That is not what I am saying at all. I have no idea what pole fighting should look like and to be honest don't really care.

    What I am commenting on is the similarities of those movements to movements I have trained in while in the military. There are similarities to close order drill as it is currently trained, which is used to train coordinated movement in formation and bayonet training I received in using the rifle as a heavy but short pole like weapon (with or without the bayonet) and if you look at old military manuals how the bayonet was used when muskets were the primary weapon of the infantry.

    As you so often point out effective training is effective training and the skills will look the same for techniques used in actual fighting no matter what the source.
    So you are saying that movements you see in the pole form are similar to movements you learned in the military for bayonette fighting?

    OK.

    I don't disagree at all.

    My point is that while the movements are similar, how they are used will differ as the weapons differ. For example, you can strike with the wooden body of a spear (the movement) but that isn't your primary attack with the spear, whereas with a blunt pole, you can poke but that isn't your primary attack (since hitting with the body of the weapon is more effective). And, as your primary way of striking changes, so will how you set it up, etc. You may see the same movements, but not put together or emphasized the same way.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    Actually I was thinking of this post and several others like it.

    k gledhill
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc
    Yup. That form contains the bare points but over-emphasizes the "linear aspects" (not surprising since Yip used to teach the pole points with chopsticks while at a restaurant!). Other WCK pole sets, like YKS or Gu Lao, seem to have retained more variety.

    But this illustrates what I was trying to get at -- people see this form and think that it (the linear focus) somehow represents what fighting with a pole will be (mainly linear thrusts). But when we really see pole fighting, you don't see that emphasized.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Look at it this way, take two swords, a heavy dull one like a wooden bokken and light, sharp one, like a rapier. Does it make sense to use a bokken like a rapier? They are two very different weapons.



    If you had a bokken, would poking your opponent with the tip be your action of choice since "blunt force trauma is blunt force trauma" or would your offensive action of choice be to bring the body of the weapon down on his head?
    I would say that the bokken is not heavy enough to "make up the difference". You have a "fixed quantity" in the amount of force the human body can take, so there is a lower limit to the mass of the blunt weapon you use.

    I'm not saying blunt heavy weapons are as good as bladed weapons, I'm just disputing that they are not effective.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Yup. That form contains the bare points but over-emphasizes the "linear aspects" (not surprising since Yip used to teach the pole points with chopsticks while at a restaurant!). Other WCK pole sets, like YKS or Gu Lao, seem to have retained more variety.

    But this illustrates what I was trying to get at -- people see this form and think that it (the linear focus) somehow represents what fighting with a pole will be (mainly linear thrusts). But when we really see pole fighting, you don't see that emphasized.
    I agree. I think what I was trying to say as I can see how a weapon like the pike or heavy spear, meant to be used in a military formation evolved into a civilian art using a blunt weapon in one on one conflicts. To me the old DNA, so to speak, of the military weapon can still be seen in the current forms

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    I would say that the bokken is not heavy enough to "make up the difference". You have a "fixed quantity" in the amount of force the human body can take, so there is a lower limit to the mass of the blunt weapon you use.

    I'm not saying blunt heavy weapons are as good as bladed weapons, I'm just disputing that they are not effective.
    Well, I don't understand -- the pole is just a spear without a point! They could weigh the same.

    I am not saying that the thrust isn't still a possibility with a pole, just that it isn't the "main" offensive action. Take the stick and the sword -- certainly you can poke with the stick but that isn't the main offensive action since you will get more effect with using it as a club. By the same token, if you have a sword (a pointed, sharpened stick), then using it as a club isn't your main action. And once you change your main offensive action, you need to change your set ups, your defenses, etc.

  10. #220
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    Don't you think the 6.5pt pole has crossed too far over that threshold for it to be used nimbly like a club? Yes, in terms of maximizing the "striking surface" you would use the last 12-18" in a "sweeping" fashion, but I would contend you get more "force" as a thrust via the tip. Each technique has its place.

    I mean there is no way it would be used like a 6-7ft pole.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    Don't you think the 6.5pt pole has crossed too far over that threshold for it to be used nimbly like a club? Yes, in terms of maximizing the "striking surface" you would use the last 12-18" in a "sweeping" fashion, but I would contend you get more "force" as a thrust via the tip. Each technique has its place.

    I mean there is no way it would be used like a 6-7ft pole.
    Today's heavy hardwood pole is too heavy and a good training implement. But in actuality, Southern pole practitioners fought with the Shangdong white wax wood poles, which were lacquered or treated with oils to make them more dense and heavy, yet still retained flexibility. It was very strong, flexible, light and maneuverable, unlike the WCK training pole today.

    Certainly the single head pole is not used like a 6 foot double end staff, but you can adapt the movements to any length of pole that you can comfortably use with 2 hands.

  12. #222
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    ^^
    That adds a different complexion to it. Thanks for the info.
    So IS there a preferred attacking technique?

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    ^^
    That adds a different complexion to it. Thanks for the info.
    So IS there a preferred attacking technique?
    Yes., that's what I have been talking about. It's not poking with the tip like a spear but striking with a swinging action.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Today's heavy hardwood pole is too heavy and a good training implement. But in actuality, Southern pole practitioners fought with the Shangdong white wax wood poles, which were lacquered or treated with oils to make them more dense and heavy, yet still retained flexibility. It was very strong, flexible, light and maneuverable, unlike the WCK training pole today.

    Certainly the single head pole is not used like a 6 foot double end staff, but you can adapt the movements to any length of pole that you can comfortably use with 2 hands.
    Well you said earlier the "pole" was from the North... Is what you refer to above a Gwan?

    Is the Gwan from the South?

    Is the Gwan WCK uses heavier than a "real Gwan"..

    Do you think the linear nature of the form is wrong?

    Do you think WCK is mainly a linear art or something else?

    A bokken has little in common with the Gwan in size or weight.
    Last edited by YungChun; 02-12-2010 at 05:21 PM.
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  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Do you think WCK is mainly a linear art or something else?
    WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking him. How can that be a "linear" art? Or, are you talking about fighting with the pole?

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