The Pole

[t_niehoff]

Do you think the linear nature of the form is wrong?

The form isn't application -- it really doesn't matter how you do the form.

[YungChun]

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking him. How can that be a "linear" art?

1. Question was not directed at you..

2. I know what *you* think the art is..

3. I disagree with you..

4. I refer mainly to a linear expression of power release..

5. If you can't see that the centerline is a line (linear) then that's cool with me..

[anerlich]

My instructor's advice and practice with the pole follow Robert's guidelines.

You can't spar effectively with that big, heavy beast.

[YungChun]

The form isn't application -- it really doesn't matter how you do the form.

So then it doesn't matter how we do any form, right?

Training incorrect mechanics is fine..

Nothing in the classical training, is *application* is far as you are concerned so it doesn't matter how you do it right?

Then I guess it really doesn't matter how the art is taught.. Just hand over the Kuit and you're good...

Sure, right...

[t_niehoff]

1. Question was not directed at you..

If you only want to hear Robert's view PM him.

2. I know what *you* think the art is..

I doubt that. But, in any event, Robert and I are not very far apart in our approach to WCK.

3. I disagree with you..

Of course you do. That is to be expected.

4. I refer mainly to a linear expression of power release..

Oh, Lord.

5. If you can't see that the centerline is a line (linear) then that's cool with me..

The centerline is a fiction. If you can't see that then it's cool with me.

[YungChun]

The centerline is a fiction. If you can't see that then it's cool with me.

Right WCK is not based on the centerline.. Right, of course... And Robert agrees with this? Mmmm okidoki...

[Phil Redmond]

The long pole training is to develop Cheung kiu lihk (long bridge strength). An 8 foot + pole would definately be hard to fight with. A fighting pole would be lots shorter. Also the main purpose of "our" pole is to not use it like a club but to do a bone crushing strikes with the tip like a spear after parrying etc., or striking an opponent's hand.

[t_niehoff]

So then it doesn't matter how we do any form, right?

Training incorrect mechanics is fine..

Forms don't teach or train mechaincs -- they can't. Mechanics are learned and developed by doing the task itself. For example, you can't learn or develop how to correctly hit a tennis ball by a form, you learn and develop that ability by hitting the ball. A form doesn't give you the feedback.

And, no, I don't think how you do a form/set is important. Doing the skill itself is important.

Nothing in the classical training, is *application* is far as you are concerned so it doesn't matter how you do it right?

Doing the skill itself is important. Not doing the skill isn't important.

Then I guess it really doesn't matter how the art is taught.. Just hand over the Kuit and you're good...

Sure, right...

Sure how you are taught is important -- teach how to do a skill, then practice doing that skill. Leave all the nonsense at the door.

Ahh, more rolling eyes -- the mark.

[t_niehoff]

The long pole training is to develop Cheung kiu lihk (long bridge strength).

What is this long bridge strength you speak of?

An 8 foot + pole would definately be hard to fight with. A fighting pole would be lots shorter. Also the main purpose of "our" pole is to not use it like a club but to do a bone crushing strikes with the tip like a spear after parrying etc., or striking an opponent's hand.

That's a great theory. Only you won't be able to hit the hand or crush any bones with the tip.

What is your plan B then?

[YungChun]

I don't have the time to debunk all of your slow pitch BS.

And, no, I don't think how you do a form/set is important. Doing the skill itself is important.

How you train a movement IS important.. Boxers train movements outside of real application all the time on a variety of devices, including air.. How many times does this need to be written..? Stop wasting my time.

I could line up a host of Human Performance Specialists who would tell you how important it is to train mechanics correctly..whatever the kind of training, whatever the intensity level...

Doing the skill itself is important. Not doing the skill isn't important.

Mechanics are mechanics, train them wrong and you program the body wrong.. (what you do)

Now have fun playing in the sandbox..

[t_niehoff]

Right WCK is not based on the centerline.. Right, of course... And Robert agrees with this? Mmmm okidoki...

WCK is not "based on" the centerline. The centerline is a fiction. It is a heuristic for beginners. Same with heaven/man/earth, the gate theory, etc.

But, if you never get passed that stage . . .

[t_niehoff]

I don't have the time to debunk all of your slow pitch BS.

You won't debunk anything.

How you train a movement IS important.. Boxers train movements outside of real application all the time on a variety of devices, including air.. How many times does this need to be written..? Stop wasting my time.

I never said how you train a movement isn't important -- just that doing forms won't teach or develop mechanics. Hitting focus mitts, for example, is practicing the skill (striking). Yes, boxers do practice shadow boxing but -- and if you actually trained boxing you'd realize this -- that involves boxing an imaginary opponent, so that you are moving as you would if an opponent was really facing you. And, your ability with this drills comes from sparring in that you take what you do in sparring and put that into your shadow boxing.

The only one wasting your time is you.

I could line up a host of Human Performance Specialists who would tell you how important it is to train mechanics correctly..whatever the kind of training, whatever the intensity level...

Again, I never said that it isn't important to train mechanics -- of course it is. But practicing forms in the air won't train mechanics.

Mechanics are mechanics, train them wrong and you program the body wrong.. (what you do)

That's right -- that's EXACTLY right. And, how do you KNOW if your mechanics are right or wrong? By doing the skill itself. That's the only way to know. The feedback from performing the skill itself is the only way to know if you are programming your body correctly. A form in the air can't give you that.

Now have fun playing in the sandbox..

But at least I have my thinking cap on.

[Phil Redmond]

What is this long bridge strength you speak of?



That's a great theory. Only you won't be able to hit the hand or crush any bones with the tip.

What is your plan B then?

It's very simple. Train your accuracy so that you can.

[Liddel]

The feedback from performing the skill itself is the only way to know if you are programming your body correctly. A form in the air can't give you that.

Seems like this place doesnt change much...

Im curious why we see surfers practicing getting up on shore, sand doesnt give the same feedback as a moving wave.

Howabout why golfers have a practice swing when grass isnt the same as hitting the ball, or practice swinging with two clubs in hand which is a popular one at the club i belong to.

Why does my friend whos competed in commonwealth games and played pro ball for the Raiders run in a straight line with a tire tied to his waist for practice, no feedback from other players.

I know the reasons and they are fairly obvious, which begs the question why treat the Chun any different. Many other sports and fighting arts have isolted drills as part of thier training.

Forms are not the only type of training wing Chun advocates, far from it. and need i point out that i dont think anyone here is saying that either T.

You may have your thinking cap on, but the 1 to 1 peak is narrowing your view IMO.

I think VT training is limited in its traditional form, but those who walk that path and augment / add on the more modern training practices after attaining skill in the basics actually have a better more stable base to build on IME.

GSP please stand up LOL

DREW

[YungChun]

Seems like this place doesnt change much...

Im curious why we see surfers practicing getting up on shore, sand doesnt give the same feedback as a moving wave.

Howabout why golfers have a practice swing when grass isnt the same as hitting the ball, or practice swinging with two clubs in hand which is a popular one at the club i belong to.

Why does my friend whos competed in commonwealth games and played pro ball for the Raiders run in a straight line with a tire tied to his waist for practice, no feedback from other players.

I know the reasons and they are fairly obvious, which begs the question why treat the Chun any different. Many other sports and fighting arts have isolted drills as part of thier training.

Forms are not the only type of training wing Chun advocates, far from it. and need i point out that i dont think anyone here is saying that either T.

You may have your thinking cap on, but the 1 to 1 peak is narrowing your view IMO.

I think VT training is limited in its traditional form, but those who walk that path and augment / add on the more modern training practices after attaining skill in the basics actually have a better more stable base to build on IME.

GSP please stand up LOL

DREW

Hi Drew..

Yes, same old, same old.. I see no point in covering old ground over and over again and typing for it's own sake.. Sadly others do, and do it over and over and over......