The Pole

[mad101dan]

According to Robert Chu

The pole, as taught on the Red Junks, was comprised of six-and-a-half conceptual points (ideas), hence it was called "six-and-a-half-point pole". The Siu Lam Weng Chun of Fung Siu-Ching included the points rise, obstruct, point, deflect, cut, and circle, and the half-point leak. While it is said the half-point is separated due to its predominantly defensive usage, all of these concepts can and should be applied defensively or offensively, as circumstances dictate. Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct. In the Cho family (descended from Opera performer Yik Kam) and Yuen Kay-San systems, the spearing pole is considered the half-point since it is the core and can come from any other movement .

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/art...s_weapons.html

[LoneTiger108]

LT:

An old Chinese saying comes to mind: 'dui ngu taane kam' , which means playing piano to a cow. No matter whether you are playing good or bad, the cow wouldn't appreciate it.

In some ways, it's the same on this forum. No matter how good your post, some may not agree; no matter how poor your post, some agrees. It all depends on ones experience, comprehension, skill level, etc., etc.

If you decide only to part-take upon good reception \ responses, then you may as well pack up and go home. FWIW, I enjoy some of your post (needless to say, I don't agree with everything) and I think it's good contribution to an otherwise 'bickering' forum.

Carry on if you enjoy the banter, but remember that only 'weak minded' people needs to seek other's approval.

Thanks for the comments chisauking. Nice to know someone is at least 'enjoying' my little posts. I can only say that I hope you don't think that I would 'need approval' to be here. I am big enough and old enough to make up my own mind, but believe me when I say that many of my Family will probably use the saying you talk of here!

Being trained behind closed doors has its disadvantages, as at times I felt completely controlled by Sifu, but as I aged he relaxed and once I had kids he literally ordered me to go home! lol! I find nothing wrong in this submissive attitude as he was 'as a father' to me for many years.

I will carry on posting regardless as I do like the banter, meaningful or not! But time is against me as always...

[Phil Redmond]

According to Robert Chu . . .
Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct.

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/art...s_weapons.html

The blocks/parries are: Biu kwan, Tan kwan, Bong kwan, Fuhk kwan, Gahn kwan, Jut kwan, Chow kwan. There are still 6 distinct strikes and 1 half strike. And there is chi kwan practice as well.

[LoneTiger108]

The blocks/parries are: Biu kwan, Tan kwan, Bong kwan, Fuhk kwan, Gahn kwan, Jut kwan, Chow kwan. There are still 6 distinct strikes and 1 half strike. And there is chi kwan practice as well.

I can understand your post Phil, and I'm happy that you're contributing here, but there may be other versions of the Pole that use varied terminologies for the techniques being trained, let alone the theories behind the form.

I would appreciate your comments in this thread, as I know my families pole is not very well known...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=42773

[byond1]

My take!

The Look Dim Boon Gwun, Sam Dim Boon Gwun, and the Sap Sam Cheung Look Dim Boon Gwun are names, for differant pole methods, typicaly found within the WCK system though differant pole forms and methods can be found in other Kung Fu branchs, with the same names.

Like all things in WCK, the traditional 'naming' of something, contains ideas about "it" and the concepts and principles involved. 6 and half point pole doesnt mean you can ONLY have 6.5 attacks. It means Litteraly 6 and a half concept pole. A "dim" or point, is way byond a "s'trike". A "dim", is a "Yiu Dim" or "important concept".
While the Dim/Points are concepts, each is "exemplified and manefested in one specific kind of use or strike. So all 6.5 points, and the sometimes included full 7th, have 7 basic strikes/uses.

This pattern and layering of knowledge is found in the entire WCK system. Ok Tan Sau. Look at SLT. We know WCK is a princiiple and concept driven art. We have a Concept of Tan, and a Ging that goes along with it. Really it can be applied anyway ones imagination can, as long as you remain in the WCK context thats outlined in the Principles. But in the SLT form, the Tan Sau concept, is expressed and manefested in the most basic and logical us for said concept.Which is also a litteral technique or strike(with the half point)

So I think the 6.5 points are concepts first and foremost, but each can be applied litteraly as strikes, as found within the forms.

There is so much variation in WCK on everything, we cant even agree on the Half Point. And the "water dripping' pole you mentioned, in YKS Pole, is one of our regular points.
The Half point, is a CORE concept that is applied in every aspect of ones WCK, and has nothing to do with "Lan Gwun" or Sart Gwun typicaly seen in many H.K pole forms IMO.

B

[byond1]

Several posts, just while i was writing mine!! I cant keep up.

I agree with Roberts statement that Cho and YKS use "Chuen Cheung" as the Half point.

I disagree with the statement that Fung Siu Chings pole form Half point is "Lau" or Leak. Yuen Kay Shans pole form, IS Fung Siu Chings pole form. Fung lived with Yuen for the last 3 years of his life, and than the Yuens burried him and officiated at his funeral. Also the PURE Tang Family art, removed from the Modern 'weng chun" branchs represent one of the best pole forms I have seen, and is related to the YKS system (and/or vice versa)

Andreas Hoffman ~says~his pole method is that of Fung Siu Ching. He teachs that the 6 pole concepts are applied to half of his system, while the Half point of Lau/leaking is the other Half of the system he teachs. As in Lau is the most important and is Half of what you always want to do or keep in mind. If you want to unravel the "Modern" Weng Chun Myth, you need only visit :

www.wingchunpedia.org

and look up entries involving :

Dai Duk Lan
Lo Family
Dong and Chu Family
Tang family
Cheng Kwong
and
Andreas Hoffman

B

[couch]

*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."

Just thought I'd share.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."

Just thought I'd share.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil

[LoneTiger108]

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned.
Phil

I believe, IMO, that what you're referring to here is what we used to call the 'Half-Moon' motion prior to thrusting with a point. From what I can remember this was also a 'Chi' cultivating exercise which helps to raise the intent up to the chest before releasing through the arm and fingers.

I don't think my 'knowledge' is special either Phil, but I do belive I have had access to a 'special' environment concerning this tool, or weapon as it was a standard for all of us. I am very proud of my experiences with my Sifu and I know that this was an ongoing argument as when I first heard of the form it was refferred to as the 6 & half point pole. Later, we all decided that it made more sense being the 6 Point & Half Pole due to our distinct Half Pole Set.

Please consider that I'm talking of a whole 'Form' here, which would have been impossible to practice in a small home in Hong Kong! Adjustments were normally made for this reason and I feel that what I have seen from Yip Mans version the points and motions are there, but the stance/leg/stepping work is minimized completely. A reference to 'hidden' theories was the norm and I feel that Lee Shing hid nothing from his way of the stick, as the stick was his life...

[couch]

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil

I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward

Maybe when I'm back in town (I'm away next week), I could Youtube myself.
I look forward to your e-mail, Phil!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[LoneTiger108]

I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward

Kenton, I have to thank you for this insight as I personally do nothing like this with the pole form I studied. I have seen this type of training/form though and I do recognize what you may mean by 'poke in horse' as we refer to this posture as 'Dai Yat Dim' or 'First Point' in English. Maybe what you're doing here is actually training a set for assisting your understanding of one point?

My Uncle Austin Goh has shown a '3 Point' exercise on Youtube, and its quite similar in places:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNU4B4BToIE

This clip looks more like what you described IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJadrTsQZCo

[couch]

Kenton,
This clip looks more like what you described IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

Yup, that's half of it!

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJadrTsQZCo

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.

My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik

[sihing]

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.

My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik

Hi Kenton

I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.

James