The Pole

[wingchunIan]

From my own learning, we also preferred to use smaller sticks before we progressed onto the pole and this entire idea is missing from the Ip Man method. It's a Shaolin method. The poles roots are in Shaolin, and this is what I mean by minimization.

Hi Spencer, using shorter sticks to practice for the long pole would seem counter intuitive to me. They are totally different weapons and hence have to be trained and used in different ways (eskrima / Kali sticks are not simply shorter versions of the Bo which in turn isn't simply a shorter version of the long pole.). Shorter weapons have a different range of motion, different manouverability etc

[LoneTiger108]

They are totally different weapons and hence have to be trained and used in different ways (eskrima / Kali sticks are not simply shorter versions of the Bo which in turn isn't simply a shorter version of the long pole.)

That's not a decent comparison Ian imho. Double weaponry is totally different to single handed weaponry. And to be honest, unless you have learnt this way and trained as much as some peeps have, how would you know?

Check what I wrote above, because imho without the cudgel understanding and practise the pole will become irrelevant (or just a power building exercise). You need a balance of both. And maybe this is a massive statement to make, but I am talking about Martial Arts ability here. I'm trying to keep it real.

A person who first learns the pole with a full length and weight pole is destined to cause themselves injury. I've seen it and done it. It isn't right that we ask the next generations to remain guinea pigs when all the experimentation has been done already, is it?

It's like saying you have only ever used a generals spear, and I let a footsoldier loose on you with his spear and he pierces you through 10 times to your one move! Proper development is crucial

[Sean66]

Spencer,

I've practiced extensively the liu he men (shoalin system) pole and spear sets, as well as yang shi taiji spear. And I agree, it's all good stuff.

The typical length of the long pole for HK wing chun is 9 feeet, but I think historically the length and width differed between regions/schools (on the mainland) and there was no standardized length.

It just depends on what weapon you want to practice with. A six foot pole and a nine foot pole lend themselves to different techniques. The nature of the weapon dictates what you're going to do with it.

Oh, and I don't agree that without cudgel practice the long pole or spear becomes irrelevant. In the taiji I practice we start out with the Da Qiang (more than 3 meters), and it is not only a tool for power development, but a great weapon.

[LoneTiger108]

Oh, and I don't agree that without cudgel practice the long pole or spear becomes irrelevant. In the taiji I practice we start out with the Da Qiang (more than 3 meters), and it is not only a tool for power development, but a great weapon.

With all respect, that's Taichi Sean. I understand that it's a great weapon too, so don't get me wrong, but the reasoning and purpose may be nothing to do with Wing Chun.

I was taught cudgel plays very early on, so as all the combinations of stepping and stance work were covered whilst learning SLT. These methods are identical with our pole too, so when we transitioned onto the longer/heavier weapon it made more sense and was easily learnt.

Just my personal experience, and I know it's 'outside the norm' in Wing Chun but it worked for me

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1148132]Thanks for sharing Sean, I do understand what you're saying here and think this is one of the core reasons the rest of the 'form' was excluded by Ip Man.
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Spencer- you are understandably devoted to your exposure to Lee Shin and his pole work via your sifu. But your comments on Ip Man and pole usage is underinformed. Ip man;s pole work was considerable. and included work on both sides and balanced and was not limited to up/down or sideways or angled thrusts. Ip Man pole usage when well taught was multi directional multi stanced both stable and mobile and had circles and lines in many directions and concept based.


And in passing far different from northern or taiji spear work.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer- you are understandably devoted to your exposure to Lee Shin and his pole work via your sifu. But your comments on Ip Man and pole usage is underinformed.

That may be true Joy, as I am only going by what I have been told and shown by very few Ip Man decendants (most notably WSL lineage) and as you must know the pole in any shape or form seems to be in very short supply in the UK.

I am simply putting my opinion across on what I have seen demonstrated a hundred times over. The form/set of Ip Man pole available to the public. Maybe you have a longer version from Sifu Fung or HKM?? I would love to see that, but I do not mean a sub-set of drills using directional practise like you described.

I am talking of the 'form' itself really, because in Windy Citys clip he clearly states that there is/was 'no form'.

This may not be the best example, but this is what is generally considered to be Ip Mans pole 'form', but what I am saying is that THIS is just one set, called Dai Yat Dim. The First Point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqYgCm9MPlA

If you can show more, please share!!

[wingchunIan]

That's not a decent comparison Ian imho. Double weaponry is totally different to single handed weaponry. And to be honest, unless you have learnt this way and trained as much as some peeps have, how would you know?

Check what I wrote above, because imho without the cudgel understanding and practise the pole will become irrelevant (or just a power building exercise). You need a balance of both. And maybe this is a massive statement to make, but I am talking about Martial Arts ability here. I'm trying to keep it real.

We have totally different opinions here. With reference to how long people have trained, it makes no odds to me, its quality over quantity for me every time and having trained martial arts for over thirty years, I've seen my fair share of veterans who were very very poor, but looked good in their fancy pygamas and coloured belts. My experience of pole weapons comes from a limited amount of japanese staff training and the wing chun pole coupled with plenty of altercations in my younger days where I've employed everything from bats to pool cues and scaffolding poles. IMO the Wing Chun pole training is devoted to using the wing chun pole (power development is an added bonus) as a weapon, there is no flowery periphery. The weighting of the pole and the focus of the energy make it completely different to shorter weapons and its shear size prohibits the twirling and circular actions characteristic of the shorter staffs. I've trained shorter staffs and have never found any cross over between the two. Not really sure what you are trying to say with your "massive statement". Keeping it real means using the pole as a weapon and training it in a realistic way, for me that means using the pole not a shorter version.
Each to their own, and I'm open to being convinced of the benefits to long pole training of short pole training.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1148151]
The form/set of Ip Man pole available to the public.

(("THE" form??!!! You have Kwok's version etc- he did not learn the pole from Ip man.))

Maybe you have a longer version from Sifu Fung or HKM??


(((Both have their sequences of motions which include the key concepts of the pole. The key students of HKM in Macao, Toronto and Arizoma know pole work.))



I am talking of the 'form' itself really, because in Windy Citys clip he clearly states that there is/was 'no form'.

((Ip Man did not teacha standardizes kwan form but he taught the kwan extensively to key students but not in the regular open classes))))

PS one can practice motions with a 6 footer but for power development the 8-9 footer is much better.I don't do videos. Sifu had a dvd out some years ago. Best to take his weapons seminar when he offers one. I Know I know you are across the pond. SifuFong and his top students, 2-3 of HKM's Macao students including LMF and a couple of sigung's Canadian students know pole work.You cant just depend on Youtube and HK visit for good pole knowledge of IM's polework.Joy

[LoneTiger108]

First off I have to say that I do not have Samuel Kwoks version of the pole lol!! It's just a clip I found that I thought would be a good representation of the standard Ip Man pole set, seeing as he is currently one of the only official representatives of Ip Mans and his sons (?)

Both have their sequences of motions which include the key concepts of the pole. The key students of HKM in Macao, Toronto and Arizoma know pole work.

I have only heard positive things about Ho Kam Ming, and it doesn't surprise me that his closer students will know pole work, but you confirm that they still have 'no form' so thanks for the info Joy.

You cant just depend on Youtube and HK visit for good pole knowledge of IM's polework.Joy

But its okay for people to judge my own Sigungs pole methods by looking at out-dated clips of Sifu Austin Goh?? Because this is what happens isn't it?

I think we can all agree that your point is crucial

[LoneTiger108]

We have totally different opinions here.

And that is healthy! As long as we can still discuss things that obviously matter to us both

The weighting of the pole and the focus of the energy make it completely different to shorter weapons and its shear size prohibits the twirling and circular actions characteristic of the shorter staffs. I've trained shorter staffs and have never found any cross over between the two.

I do not find this an issue. Even the shorter 2m sticks I trained were white-wax-wood, which is tapered and weighted too just as the pole. As for the 'twirling', these are dexterity exercises and very useful to gain familiarity with your weapon. Also a trait of certain Opera Troupes too. Juggling is for entertainment value and I do understand that.

Not really sure what you are trying to say with your "massive statement". Keeping it real means using the pole as a weapon and training it in a realistic way, for me that means using the pole not a shorter version.

For me this means training the pole against other 'more common' weapons like the shorter cudgel!! And to do this you must understand the strengths and weaknesses of both. They do compliment eachother and the way our form is set out, it allows a complete method of fierce interactive training that is not seen anywhere else (in Wushu, Shaolin or Wing Chun schools) That for me, is realism.

I have to remind everyone too that the name of our form is Luk Dim Boon Gwan, and the word Gwan does not even mean Pole!! That is another term altogether, so I'm also unsure why and how this term came into use??

[Sean66]

a complete method of fierce interactive training

Ok, Spencer. Let's see some examples of this training. Break out the old digital camera and take some footage.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1148277]First off I have to say that I do not have Samuel Kwoks version of the pole lol!! It's just a clip I found that I thought would be a good representation of the standard Ip Man pole set, seeing as he is currently one of the only official representatives of Ip Mans and his sons (?)

((Your logic is your own. Official designation as representative of Ip man's sons. What does that have to do with anyone but Ip Chun, Ip Ching and Kwok.))



I have only heard positive things about Ho Kam Ming, and it doesn't surprise me that his closer students will know pole work, but you confirm that they still have 'no form' so thanks for the info Joy.

((Words. depends on what you mean by form. There are fluid inter connected sequences in HKM and AF pole work. Logic on why one motion follows another for development)))



But its okay for people to judge my own Sigungs pole methods by looking at out-dated clips of Sifu Austin Goh?? Because this is what happens isn't it?


((I don't "judge" your Sigung's "pole methods"-I just have a different POV from Lee Shing wing chun-though it LS WC is a form of wing chun))

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Ok, Spencer. Let's see some examples of this training. Break out the old digital camera and take some footage.

Well, that's not likely.

We have become accustomed to keeping things to ourselves over the years and the fact that I am actually still posting here after being warned off chatting to the world by anyone and everyone in the LSWC family I think sharing some ideas in words is enough for me!!

[LoneTiger108]

Your logic is your own. Official designation as representative of Ip man's sons. What does that have to do with anyone but Ip Chun, Ip Ching and Kwok.

Interesting mindset, and one of the reasons the whole Wing Chun family is fractured Joy.

What you are saying is that the Ip 'sons' are not doing what their father wanted them to do?? They are not teaching 'Ip Man Wing Chun'?

I don't "judge" your Sigung's "pole methods"-I just have a different POV from Lee Shing wing chun-though it LS WC is a form of wing chun

My comment wasn't actually aimed at you personally Joy, although I don't fully understand the last few words...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1148301]Interesting mindset, and one of the reasons the whole Wing Chun family is fractured Joy.


((It's a fractious family-with good relatives, bad relatives, insiders, outsiders, welcome and unwelcome visitors, with distinguished predecessors and impostors.))


What you are saying is that the Ip 'sons' are not doing what their father wanted them to do?? They are not teaching 'Ip Man Wing Chun'?


((I have great affection and respect for them as Ip man's sons-but I don't do their wing chun.
They really began learning after moving to HK after over 12 years of being left behind in Fatshan. Ip man was retiiring from active teaching and some of his students were doing the teaching. Of Course they are doing ""Ip Man wing chun""but that is a diverse world.))


My comment wasn't actually aimed at you personally Joy,

((I have yet to take anything that you have said personally))

joy chaudhuri