The Pole

[KPM]

Okay. You see a connection to the Ip Man pole in what they do and you do, as do I. And I also see the connection of what I have seen in my own lineage too.

---Great! I figure there are only so many ways to move when holding a long heavy pole at one end!

But out of interest, how does your training utilize this huen gwan method seen in the Tang Yik set??

----For training increased "tip control" over the weapon. For moving the tip of the opponent's weapon off-line in application.

This is the 'nimble footwork' you are talking about? This is also very common in basic baat gwa gwan practise, something that isn't even commonly considered to be within Wing Chun pole especially from Ip Man

----The sideways movements where he is almost running on his tip-toes? Yeah, not seen in Ip Man WCK pole that I know of.


So, please show me ANY Ip family that 'use' this mobility method in empty hand training like you are suggesting.

---I never suggested that it was used in empty hand training. It wouldn't be necessary in empty hand training. It is used to quickly reposition a long weapon, which requires moving your body across a bigger space. One could argue even that is not necessary. But it is pretty cool! In empty hand application we would just use "facing" footwork.


My Sigung was over 60 in his clip and the set as he played it in the clip is at a very basic level with a solid staff, no flex as this was all that was available to him on the day!

----Tang Yik was over 60 in that clip as well. And yes, your clip showed some very basic level stuff. Which was my point. Why are you then surprised that more people are impressed by Tang Yik's clip than the clip of your Sigung?


You lose my interest with the last part of your comment. I have heard the twirling thing so much and even when I mention we are practising stick/cudgel plays I am still hearing it lol!

---Then why did you post it as an example of your system's pole methods?

[guy b.]

This is the only time I have publically demonstrated our pole plays (with a stick!) and I wonder if people can see the similarities in motion to some things they may have trained with their long pole.

http://youtu.be/MH_5SS2BR-Y?t=2m

All I ask is that you view this clip in context to the time and stage everyone was at back then when we were with our Sifu at Jun Mo. We were a very traditional group, promoting a way to perform that caused quite a stir. Man, even the uniforms threw the modernists into a rage lol!

But that was how we all were, and in a way I know my Sifu loved the time we all had as we were only trying to make people think about what Wing Chun may have been like before it became what it is today. We were having some fun of sorts too...

Looks ridiculous

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U2crnECuC8

Very good pole, wing chun or not

[LoneTiger108]

---Great! I figure there are only so many ways to move when holding a long heavy pole at one end!

Yes there are and the clip gives more to think about for many it seems.

----For training increased "tip control" over the weapon. For moving the tip of the opponent's weapon off-line in application.

Yes thatwhat its for but I asked how you trained huen gwan. Its ok it doesn't matter.

----The sideways movements where he is almost running on his tip-toes? Yeah, not seen in Ip Man WCK pole that I know of.

---I never suggested that it was used in empty hand training. It wouldn't be necessary in empty hand training. It is used to quickly reposition a long weapon, which requires moving your body across a bigger space. One could argue even that is not necessary. But it is pretty cool! In empty hand application we would just use "facing" footwork.

OK

----Tang Yik was over 60 in that clip as well. And yes, your clip showed some very basic level stuff. Which was my point. Why are you then surprised that more people are impressed by Tang Yik's clip than the clip of your Sigung?

---Then why did you post it as an example of your system's pole methods?

Being low level was not my point but you're keen to point it out again, so what's your point? My main reason for even posting here was to highlight that when there are different ideas put out there, and in this case from sources that seem far removed from Ip Man, they are accepted more so than differences that arise from people that were taught directly by Ip Man and others too.

Whether you even know what you are looking at or not, it seems that the weaponry of Wing Chun can be claimed by anyone and everyone even when it has been suggested that it isn't even Wing Chun in the first place! I find that just weird.

[KPM]

Being low level was not my point but you're keen to point it out again, so what's your point?

---Hold on Spencer. Nothing negative was meant towards your Sigung. I didn't say "low-level", I said "basic." There is a difference. You seemed a little peeved by the idea that Tang Yik's vid got more attention and praise than the vid of your Sigung. I was just pointing out why that is so.


My main reason for even posting here was to highlight that when there are different ideas put out there, and in this case from sources that seem far removed from Ip Man, they are accepted more so than differences that arise from people that were taught directly by Ip Man and others too.

----I think people that have a grasp of how the WCK pole functions see that vid of Tang Yik and recognize someone doing it at a high level and including things that fit very well as an extension to what we do. Distance from Ip Man is irrelevant in that case. In contrast I can see someone in direct Ip Man lineage doing crap with a pole because they didn't learn it well (not implying your Sigung, just speaking in generalities). So again, distance from Ip Man can be irrelevant.


Whether you even know what you are looking at or not, it seems that the weaponry of Wing Chun can be claimed by anyone and everyone even when it has been suggested that it isn't even Wing Chun in the first place! I find that just weird.

---You lost me here. I'm not sure what you mean by "weaponry of Wing Chun claimed by anyone and everyone even when it has been suggested that it isn't even Wing Chun."

[LoneTiger108]

---You lost me here. I'm not sure what you mean by "weaponry of Wing Chun claimed by anyone and everyone even when it has been suggested that it isn't even Wing Chun."

Just a reference to those that are saying Weng Chun isn't Wing Chun. The fact that we can take guidance or inspiration from Weng Chun pole far easier than we do from Wing Chun pole, which suggests our weaponry is in a pretty bad place.

Its quie sad really

[Grumblegeezer]

Just a reference to those that are saying Weng Chun isn't Wing Chun. The fact that we can take guidance or inspiration from Weng Chun pole far easier than we do from Wing Chun pole, which suggests our weaponry is in a pretty bad place.

Its quie sad really

Not sure I get what you mean about Weng Chun pole vs. Wing Chun pole. The Wing Chun pole I've learned is quite different from what little is shown in the clips you posted from your lineage and in some ways closer to what I see in the Weng Chun clip.

However, without pointlessly arguing about the merits of different lineages, I can broadly agree with the observation that WC weaponry is generally in a poor state. I know mine is. That's because the weapons are generally held back too long, taught to too few, and not trained widely enough with weapons sparring included in the mix.

Look at it this way. If almost nobody really learns the technique, and if you have few to none to compete with and hone your skills, it figures that your technique will be poor to useless.

Personally, I tend to view the traditional WC weapons as supplemental training that really serves to augment my empty-hands training. For practical weapons skills, I practice escrima. It provides exactly the kind of interactive training I find missing in most WC/VT/WT weapons programs, ...and with improvised weapons "of opportunity" that are available in typical contemporary environments.

Now If I lived in the 1800s in Canton, maybe the long pole would have been a more obvious and realistic weapon to train. Check out the picture below:

http://chinesemartialstudies.files.w...1880-18901.jpg

Guangzhou circa 1890. Can you spot any poles?

[LoneTiger108]

Not sure I get what you mean about Weng Chun pole vs. Wing Chun pole. The Wing Chun pole I've learned is quite different from what little is shown in the clips you posted from your lineage and in some ways closer to what I see in the Weng Chun clip.

That is kind of my point Do people really understand what our pole work is and how it is trained? Or are we quite happy taking something else?

Actually I read a little somewhere about Ip Man using pole methods he see in Dai Duk Lan to teach in HK, but from what I understand this is not how he would have learnt from Chan Wah Shun.

However, without pointlessly arguing about the merits of different lineages, I can broadly agree with the observation that WC weaponry is generally in a poor state. I know mine is. That's because the weapons are generally held back too long, taught to too few, and not trained widely enough with weapons sparring included in the mix.

At least you are humble enough to see that in your own training.

FWIW I was taught general cudgel and many many interactive, or what are referred to as two man sparring sets, prior to really getting deeper into the long pole training itself. This was all within my first year, but I accepted the fact that I was a lot smaller than all my peers and my Sifu wanted me to drill and build myself up!

For practical weapons skills, I practice escrima. It provides exactly the kind of interactive training I find missing in most WC/VT/WT weapons programs, ...and with improvised weapons "of opportunity" that are available in typical contemporary environments.

Yes. I know the LT system has adopted Escrima but personally I have never need to do that. We have double club methods in our family (or at least my Sifu has!) and we interact with these, rings, sticks, poles and knives in a Wing Chun specific manner that I feel only adds to all our empty hand methods and understanding of the systems core.

I will say it again though, because I think people maybe misunderstanding me, I do really like the Tang Yik pole clip, especially the longer one that was posted here. I can see almost ALL of the methods I use within my own training, with some a bit alien and a few that I do that I do not see.

So this is why I am asking why people can't seem to accept that my Sigung had some serious stuff!! We all know the masters made things look very simple on their own clips, especially when it comes to forms. I view my sigungs clips in this way. I look for the indicators and signatures that relate to my own training, but I build how I want to build because I am not my Sifu or Sigung!!

It would be very nice to see how the Tang Yik pole is interacted and taught in application... because personally I find this is key to connecting with Wing Chun itself. No Chi Gwan, No Gwan. Simple...

[Grumblegeezer]

That is kind of my point Do people really understand what our pole work is and how it is trained? Or are we quite happy taking something else?
Actually I read a little somewhere about Ip Man using pole methods he see in Dai Duk Lan to teach in HK, but from what I understand this is not how he would have learnt from Chan Wah Shun.

Please don't judge by rumors you've read somewhere. The Yip Man/LT pole as performed by the few who have really trained it is very effective and, I believe, authentic to our lineage. That it shares movements with Weng Chun is not surprising, since according to our lineage, the pole was originally introduced from outside Wing Chun by Leung Yee Tai, a student of Chi Shin.

The historical authenticity of Leung Yee Tai may be impossible to prove, however even though in Roots and Branches of WingTsun, Leung Ting insists that Wing Tsun (Wing Chun) and Weng Chun are totally separate systems, apparently they did influence each other to some degree during this period. The long pole is one skill set that may have been shared.

Yes. I know the LT system has adopted Escrima but personally I have never need to do that.

Actually that's only true in the European Wing Tsun Organization. I'm a Yank, and I studied directly under LT here in the States back in the 80s. LT considered his WT to be "complete" and really didn't approve of my studying Escrima from Rene Latosa. As I was one of his more senior American disciples at that time, he reluctantly permitted me to continue to study escrima, but never really approved. Eventually, my free thinking combined with the lack of a "deep pocket" financially cost me. I was no longer included in the privileged clique, and I chose to leave his organization. These days, I continue to train escrima with various instructors and have found it very compatible with my Ving Tsun.

So this is why I am asking why people can't seem to accept that my Sigung had some serious stuff!! We all know the masters made things look very simple on their own clips, especially when it comes to forms. I view my sigungs clips in this way. I look for the indicators and signatures that relate to my own training, but I build how I want to build because I am not my Sifu or Sigung!!

Lone Tiger: Don't sweat the intolerant bozos. Wing Chun is all the more fascinating for the diversity of it's lineages. We only hurt our art by sectarianism and the kind narrow minded thinking often prevalent on this forum.

[EternalSpring]

I'm still very much in the earlier stages of the Luk Dim Poon Gwon, but one thing that my sifu taught as vital that I see in Tang Yiks video and not too many others is that the energy of each movement goes all the way through to the end of the staff. That's why the tip literally shakes/vibrates with each movement. Is this a basic important detail for others? I've noticed that "good" videos include this but the majority of Luk Dim Poon Gwon videos looks like the staff is simply just being lugged up and down and in various directions.

[KPM]

Just a reference to those that are saying Weng Chun isn't Wing Chun. The fact that we can take guidance or inspiration from Weng Chun pole far easier than we do from Wing Chun pole, which suggests our weaponry is in a pretty bad place.

Its quie sad really

Show me a video of your Sigung that is comparable to the one of Tang Yik and I am prepared to be impressed! You say that your Sigung has not added to the Ip Man pole that he learned. But you also said the you see everything you have learned in the Tang Yik video and there are things you do that are not in the video. If that is true, then you need to seriously reconsider whether or not your Sigung has elaborated on his Ip Man pole instruction. Because I have seen the pole form from multiple Ip Man lineages, including Ip Ching, and the way you are describing what your Sigung taught does not fit. Ip Man's pole form was not as "elaborate" as what we see on that Tang Yik video. So really, your statement above about taking guidance doesn't make much sense. Now the part about our weaponry being in a bad place I can agree with! I think Grumblegeezer hit it on the head in his response!

Again. Don't take the above as negative towards your Sigung. Doesn't the lineage say he learned Ku Lo Wing Chun as well as Ip Man Wing Chun? Don't you refer to your lineage as "Lee Shing WCK", not "Ip Man WCK"? I have no problem with the idea that he has elaborated or expanded upon the Ip Man pole he learned. I'd love to see it!

[EternalSpring]

Because I have seen the pole form from multiple Ip Man lineages, including Ip Ching, and the way you are describing what your Sigung taught does not fit. Ip Man's pole form was not as "elaborate" as what we see on that Tang Yik video.

to be fair though, the forms are hardly the complete compilation of the techniques in the system, sometimes a move in the form is like a "root move" used later to train many "different" moves in various drills.

I dont know the form for the Long Pole in my lineage yet. I've been learning and training drills for it though for about a year, and what I've seen on youtube as the Ip Man Long Pole set looks more like one of my pole drills rather than the entire long pole "system." That's why I've always loved this Tang Yik video, because that form, though from a diff lineage, looks like all the drills I've been training put into a form, with the specific details that really matter.

[LoneTiger108]

Show me a video of your Sigung that is comparable to the one of Tang Yik and I am prepared to be impressed!

Dude, I don't think you understand. This clip that Austin promoted was recorded 30 years ago and it has only just been 'let out' by the family to the public so I'm not about to upload the complete form online as I would be disowned and banished by my Sifu lol!

There are some of Joe Lee's students who are currently promoting more and more, but again they have a different view to both my Sifu and Austin too so it can all get quite confusing if you don't know what you are looking at (and basically that is anyone outside of the family/clan to be honest)

You say that your Sigung has not added to the Ip Man pole that he learned.

Did I? Or did I just say that he had been taught by Ip Man?

I think if you look back, I have said that what my Sigung had was more akin to the Fatshan teachings of Chan Wah Shun (Ip Mans Sifu) I say this because some say that he learnt from Ng Jung So, the inheritor of CWS School and Ip Mans Sihing.

My Sigung hasn't 'added' anything to his weaponry forms at all as far as I know.

Because I have seen the pole form from multiple Ip Man lineages, including Ip Ching, and the way you are describing what your Sigung taught does not fit.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here? Fit into what exactly? All I have said about what my Sigung is doing in the clip was that it was 2 sets of the form.

Again. Don't take the above as negative towards your Sigung.

I don't take offence here or anywhere else to be honest, I have learnt to sift through the sincere posters and jokers by now and can see from your questions and reasoning that you are interested. But please don't take my replies as anything but 'conversation' on Wing Chun. I try my hardest to explain and reassess what I write here as I have been misunderstood so many times I should have been offered the KFO T-Shirt by now lol!

Doesn't the lineage say he learned Ku Lo Wing Chun as well as Ip Man Wing Chun? Don't you refer to your lineage as "Lee Shing WCK", not "Ip Man WCK"? I have no problem with the idea that he has elaborated or expanded upon the Ip Man pole he learned. I'd love to see it!

Hmmm... far too many things that are misinformation here I don't know where to start.

[LoneTiger108]

to be fair though, the forms are hardly the complete compilation of the techniques in the system, sometimes a move in the form is like a "root move" used later to train many "different" moves in various drills.

You are spot on with this insight, and have the right idea about what Tang Yiks pole sets contain too, and this is what I have been trying to say here myself!

[Grumblegeezer]

I'm still very much in the earlier stages of the Luk Dim Poon Gwon, but one thing that my sifu taught as vital that I see in Tang Yiks video and not too many others is that the energy of each movement goes all the way through to the end of the staff. That's why the tip literally shakes/vibrates with each movement. Is this a basic important detail for others? I've noticed that "good" videos include this but the majority of Luk Dim Poon Gwon videos looks like the staff is simply just being lugged up and down and in various directions.

Good observation, but how visible the vibration is depends both on the quality of the movement and the length, weight and stiffness of the pole. In the hands of the same practitioner, the tip of a slender and flexible pole will almost flap back and forth while a heavy and stiff pole will simply quiver.