The Pole

[junmo]

Talk about shoot the messenger Kevin ......interesting points of view going on in this thread from Lonetiger, Ernie and K...and from my perspective I feel I can accurately gauge the positive attributes of both the Lee Shing and WSL systems ...as I have had two excellent teachers in both.

My foundation in WC was from Sifu Joe Man in London,...and my WSL training partner is one of Gary Lams students (and Ernies old training partner) - Peter Hsu in shanghai.

The Lee Shing "stick plays" are not made up kevin....I spent some very hard, but rewarding years drilling this system, and the way in which it was taught to me opened up eyes to how creative the WC system is, and how you could make it your own.

Sure it may not be your cup of tea, but because anothers reality is not your reality - that doesn't make it invalid. My training now focusses on Gary Lam curricullum as it was taught to Pete.

Do I still utilise my Joe Man training and the way he taught me - hell yes!

Sure there are fundamental differences, but if the core concepts are there. The way I was taught the Lee Shing stick plays, and the interaction sets I drilled directly flow into my way of moving and "seeing" possibilities in the WSL system.

[Kris Wu Tang]

i think your all missing the 'point' no pun intended. 6 distinct moves and half a move?

if you look at the wing chun system the pole is the last thing taught. Maybe the half move has a more deeper meaning?

[LoneTiger108]

Perhaps you can help us to understand this 'half move'? I am not familiar with this interpretation myself (hence why I created this thread) but I am looking for assistance here as I feel it's a crucial factor which may assist understanding.

Lee Shings Pole Form has 6 distinct point postures, linked together with advanced stepping work and a half pole set utilising the pole as a quarter staff. I can understand that most 'forms' I have seen from other families seem to concentrate on our 'first point', commonly called 'biu gwan'.

Can anyone here actually 'name' the rest? We tended to just number the main points, but every 'jil' within the 'sik' was named. These are the little 'half-like' moves used to link the set together, definately not the same moves as the actual 'half-pole' set itself, but has the same 'idea' behind it maybe...

[omarthefish]

How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'?

Luk Dim Boon Gwun...

Even as a Mandarin speaker I can tell that that reads "六点半棍"

Luk Dim Boon = 6 1/2 or "6:30" or the like. This reading of it as "6 and a half point" makes no sense at all. Never mind the obvious ignored question (by most)...what the heck is a "half a technique"? I technique that you messed up? A technique you really didn't have your heart in? Come on guys. These explanations are silly.

The word "dim" or "point" is in between "6 and "half" which means that syntactically it's can't really mean any of those more obscure uses of the word "dim" like "conceptual points" or "striking points". "luk dim boon" is already a morphological noun phrase meaning "6 1/2".

You sure it doesn't just refer to the length of the pole? That's how it reads in Chinese.

[Kris Wu Tang]

Perhaps you can help us to understand this 'half move'? I am not familiar with this interpretation myself (hence why I created this thread) but I am looking for assistance here as I feel it's a crucial factor which may assist understanding.

Lee Shings Pole Form has 6 distinct point postures, linked together with advanced stepping work and a half pole set utilising the pole as a quarter staff. I can understand that most 'forms' I have seen from other families seem to concentrate on our 'first point', commonly called 'biu gwan'.

Can anyone here actually 'name' the rest? We tended to just number the main points, but every 'jil' within the 'sik' was named. These are the little 'half-like' moves used to link the set together, definately not the same moves as the actual 'half-pole' set itself, but has the same 'idea' behind it maybe...

I have 2 interpretations, and I muss stress these have come from my Si Gungs.

1. as mentioned its the overall length of the pole

2. the pole is the last method taught in the wing chun system the 1/2 point means even though you have completed the system you have only gone half way and need to piece everything back together to fully understand the system.

I like to think the second is a nice way of looking at it.

[k gledhill]

i give up...

[LoneTiger108]

This thread was started so people could openly 'share' their experiences with the stick/pole and debate whether we have misunderstood the translation of the name of our famous weaponry form.

Obviously some people can't even read contributions without being negative, and I suppose the thread will be a better place without them.

What interested me was omarthefish's post, as I have heard references to the pole methods as '6 & Half Pole'. Is this what you were meaning? I presume that if 'Luk Dim Boon' was translated as 6 1/2, there is no need to even mention the 'point'.

Talk of only being 'halfway' through the form makes sense to me also, as generally that's all I see in any of Ip Mans later students, including his sons. Only half the actual content is performed, maybe even less, as I rarely see points 3, 4, 5 & 6 and never see the half pole.

[k gledhill]

towel thrown ....

[LoneTiger108]

Quit so soon?

I can only presume that this happened to you when you were learning Wing Chun, and you left before ANY decent information was shared...

[LoneTiger108]

... it isn't the fact you left Wing Chun too early, its simply because you obviously train in a highly competitive and sports orientated environment so the essence of little family systems like Wing Chun will just not fit-in well enough.

From a link on your contact page:

Large selection of classes all under one roof
• The combat sports fighting: Muay Thai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, boxing, and mixed martial arts.
• The reality-based hand-to-hand combat training: SYSTEMA (Russian Martial Art) for practical street survival and self-protection.
• The fighting styles of Kung Fu: Ng Mui, Wing Chun, and the traditional Eagle Claw Kung Fu.
• Other classes offered: Escrima, Samurai Sword-fighting, and Kettlebell Weight Training.

May I ask, just to be polite, what class do 'you' teach?

[omarthefish]

What interested me was omarthefish's post, as I have heard references to the pole methods as '6 & Half Pole'. Is this what you were meaning? I presume that if 'Luk Dim Boon' was translated as 6 1/2, there is no need to even mention the 'point'.

Yes.

Here is is in Chinese:

六点半棍

luk/6/六 dim/point/点 boon/half/半 gun/staff/棍

The Chinese semantics for a phrase like "luk dim boon" is the same for English. In other words, the "point" in this phrase means "." That's right, a decimal point. A straight reading does not give you "6 and a half points" but rather "6 point half" or "6.5".

Now Gongfu terminology often plays by its own rules. Sometimes it's because it's classical or semi-classical Chinese. Sometimes it's just because they like to encode stuff in the names that only insiders would know. I'm just offering a little insight on how you would read the phrase "luk dim boon" in a "regular" linguistic setting. It reads as a number implying length. 6.5 "chi" (Ancient Chinese measurement for length) or 6.5 nodes on a piece of rattan.

"6.5" not "6 1/2 points".

Could also be just something weird about Cantonese grammar I haven't heard before.

[CFT]

You need the 点 in 六点半 to say "6.5".
Six "half" poles would be 六枝半棍

I'm just offering a little insight on how you would read the phrase "luk dim boon" in a "regular" linguistic setting. It reads as a number implying length. 6.5 "chi" (Ancient Chinese measurement for length) or 6.5 nodes on a piece of rattan.

That's not a bad theory except I've not heard of anyone using rattan long poles before.

I don't think 六点半 has anything to do with the length - 6.5 what? 6.5 of the ancient "chi" comes out around 7.5ft which is much shorter than most wing Chun long poles (9ft upwards).

I always thought the "half point" was the leak (lau) concept.

[omarthefish]

Not having any direct experience with the WC pole forms I wouldn't have any idea how long its supposed to be. 7.5 feet is a pretty decent length for a pole. It's southern style so I figured rattan was possible although if it's really long then obviously it's more likely to be waxwood or something.

[k gledhill]

... it isn't the fact you left Wing Chun too early, its simply because you obviously train in a highly competitive and sports orientated environment so the essence of little family systems like Wing Chun will just not fit-in well enough.

From a link on your contact page:

Large selection of classes all under one roof
• The combat sports fighting: Muay Thai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, boxing, and mixed martial arts.
• The reality-based hand-to-hand combat training: SYSTEMA (Russian Martial Art) for practical street survival and self-protection.
• The fighting styles of Kung Fu: Ng Mui, Wing Chun, and the traditional Eagle Claw Kung Fu.
• Other classes offered: Escrima, Samurai Sword-fighting, and Kettlebell Weight Training.

May I ask, just to be polite, what class do 'you' teach?

Fighthouse gym NYC is where I teach Ving Tsun or 'hang' my dummy ...one big happy family, I teach the students of other arts there VT, they do BJJ, Systema...etc...a lot of mixed approach, I have students who teach ground fighting ....I learn from them
there are several other VT schools there too...
my website has my resume if your trying to do research...its simple like me made by me but it does the job

http://home.earthlink.net/~wslnyc/ there are some articles too by WSL & Philipp

[LoneTiger108]

Not having any direct experience with the WC pole forms I wouldn't have any idea how long its supposed to be. 7.5 feet is a pretty decent length for a pole. It's southern style so I figured rattan was possible although if it's really long then obviously it's more likely to be waxwood or something.

Not a bad guess at the length, but I'm sure others here will have their own ideas. The rattan poles, as far as my research goes, reminds me of the 'punting' guys in the harbours as it was a favourite due to its flexibility.

Waxwood has always been our Sifus choice, and again lengths varied. The Half Pole being considered the 'leaking' theory also sits well as you would need to know how to 'enter' into close range against long weaponry, closing the gap so to speak.