The Pole

[Ali. R]

The popular belief is that Yip Man did not teach the pole form, and many that trains in the luk kim bok far as the Hong Kong version, have gotten it from somewhere else other then Yip Man….

No matter how much I try to convince my Sifu that the word on the street is this; Yip Man never learned that form and never taught it… My Sifu response to that was; “maybe he fooled his first 20 students, just as he fooled some of his later students”…

Here’s Yip Man; it maybe short but the structure tells the story, (that he did teach it)…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NiMQFiqAl8

And here’s the form as taught to me in its entirety (The Woo Fai Ching System)…
I’m getting old and don’t move like I use too, but I guess its ok…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G14Eh0S7RZM


Ali Rahim.

[Lindley]

Ali,

The pole and the knives are advances stages of the Ving Tsun System. Being so, they are for you to apply your Kung Fu knowledge and understand the nature of these weapons. They cannot be catagorized as mechanical "forms", thus is why it will differ from practicioner to practioner. No one is "wrong", unless they cannot explain what they are doing or not demonstrating Ving Tsun ideas and concepts (or doing something contradictory to). Hence, each member of the yip man clan may claim some basic foundation from which their students are to build from. There are stories told whereby seniors picked up the pole and played and that even back in the 50's there were very few who knew any of the weapons. Realistically, many people do not stay in the Kung fu long enough. There are some who say the weapons are not "practical", and this is their excuse for not training them. However their study is very profound, not obvious.

The pole represents a long range weapon. The techniques mimc the hand techniques whereby the fulcrums of elbow and wrist change positions from our body to include the pole as an extension of our body. The pole should be grasped such to hide the end by your hand and, when thrusted, hidden underneath your armpit for full extension. The pole covers your side center line. A good pole is about 8 to 9 feet, solid and tapered. The pole makes one sound, and should stop at a point. it's mastery makes it a powerful weapon, not one can easily enter your boundary as shown in various Wing Chun articles against the Knives.

Why question whether Yip Man knew the pole or not? No relevance to what you can get out of training it properly.

Good luck in your kung fu....

[Ali. R]

I was taught to thrush under the armpit, but only change it when demonstrating for speed… I have actually done this form for over 24 years, and by being 6’3 and with a 9-foot pole that weights 10lb (far as being tapered; is optional), I have no problem with reach… I can assure you, I can mimic just like everyone else does, but speed in this case is more of a reality then thrusting a stick underneath ones armpit for reach…

I’m not questioning what Yip Man has or not, I’m asking in some words; why do most believe it or not? In which I find it too be a very interesting subject, with the up most respect to Yip Man, and I do consider myself pro Yip Man with most love…

By the way great post...


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

We have to understand when something is understood; you begin to understand the limits of everything you do…

There is always a happy medium within every structure; meaning, when the mind is free just live in the principles of what you are doing, because a tan sao can be high or low, to the outside or inside, but is only expressed in one or two ways when learning the forms, just with good integrity structure alone and maintaining the structures ideal, you will begin to find the limits of every movement within every form. And that is what makes a good demonstration or fight… Not class, but demo…

In other words, don’t become a robot when freeing the mind, and while expressing one's self never being a slave to the forms, but only the Ideal ,when ones mind is free…

When something is truly understood, there is no right or wrong way of doing things, just do them…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA philipp Bayer pole fighting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc wong sheun leung


The pole teaches speed and explosive movement at an early level for bare hands . The ballistic actions we use in the pole directly cross to the hands / arms in displacing but holding our attacking lines....a focused strike using the leg 2 arms at max extension with the mass of a 9ft pole can produce a force equal to a 45 bullet taken in the neck or vertical centerline , legs /knees , feet and your in trouble .

The ballistic displacement is key in free fighting and pole, and some knife parries involving fast rotation of the knife blade that will also displace another knife while never leaving our center line open to be counter attacked , always the vu sao


Knowledge is power , anything in your hands can be a weapon , to say its not practical is to imply you would walk around with a 9ft pole...some just shoot pool ; ) carry an umbrella, etc... sweep the steps of dust ...

[Ali. R]

Hell, I like how you think!!!


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

I was taught to thrush under the armpit, but only change it when demonstrating for speed… I have actually done this form for over 24 years, and by being 6’3 and with a 9-foot pole that weights 10lb (far as being tapered; is optional), I have no problem with reach… I can assure you, I can mimic just like everyone else does, but speed in this case is more of a reality then thrusting a stick underneath ones armpit for reach...

As I was also taught. One thing that has also helped me is to practice slow execution with Qi Gong breathing to to reinforce the structure/muscle memory. This type of form training helps to develop continuity of techniques and applications as you are flowing right into the next posture with easy transitions and all the while keeping in mind the limits of the postures.
It is also wise to note that these are fighting forms. The footwork, structure and postures also contain the follow-through aspect (just the same as Luk-Sao). If the structure is correct and supports the movements of the form then the limits are defined by the expression at that moment, or to put it another way….

There is always a happy medium within every structure; meaning, when the mind is free just live in the principles of what you are doing, because a tan sao can be high or low, to the outside or inside, but is only expressed in one or two ways when learning the forms...

So when a form is taught it should be done with the benefit of the student in mind so that they can absorb the information completely. But when doing the form to demonstrate mastery of it you pull out the stops.


Thanks, Sifu Rahim.

[k gledhill]

I would add that there is a definite reason for adopting the tan and jum elbow training positions. It is specific to developing an ability within the system. ....but my point is:

What your inferring is that, and rightly I might add, is that we shouldn't be bound by a limit to the uses of anything we do. Not being a slave to a position/angle of an arm under one banner or idea .

We are all thinking, sentient beings with the ability to adapt and survive with 2 arms and 2 legs . The martial arts are limitless in personal utilization in any given situation.
There isn't one way, its all ways, always, or always, all way's . er ah yeah

If you dont know all ways then you better get on with it hadnt you ?

[Ali. R]

Oh yeah, when I step backwards the pole is meant to be that low in form, again showing limits of the forward thrust, in which is not as nearly high when stepping forward…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

The popular belief is that Yip Man did not teach the pole form, and many that trains in the luk kim bok far as the Hong Kong version, have gotten it from somewhere else other then Yip Man

Really thats the first ive heard of this around this forum and ive been here for a while, i know its rare but.....

I was taught to thrush under the armpit, but only change it when demonstrating for speed…

Dude you should seriously get a Doctor to look at that...LOL
Sorry couldnt help myself

For me Ali the Action of thrusting out and having the driving hand under the armpit is a matter of power generation.

The movement creates energies that shake the tip of the pole which creates heavier contact when thrust into an opponent.

IMO its similar to inch power in your H2H actions.

So for me its not about reach at all. Its about energy development which is first introduced in Dan Kwan drills where i train.

The pole like the BJD has inherent energies that make it live.
Just like Bong Do's turining wrist to create sharp blocking force the pole has its own energy created by the user.

Use without these energies/movements make the actions more vunerable to failure IME.

I’m not questioning what Yip Man has or not, I’m asking in some words; why do most believe it or not?

For me personally, i believe Gm Ip did pass on the pole form.
He taught Lok Yiu who intern taught my Sifu. Later in his learning he had refinement from Gm Ip. He wasnt the only one.

I also believe that a similar situation occured to what im experiencing now.

My Sifu is too old now to teach new(er) students the pole. Its just to physically demanding for him.

I believe at least in his later days which were the most busy teaching times for Gm Ip that he was in a similar place...

Hence you had to learn from an assistant instructor of Ip's to learn the pole at this stage. Sifu Lok, WSL etc....

Thats my take for what its worth.

DREW

[Vajramusti]

Of course Ip Man taught the pole (and lots of motions with it)- but selectively.

Some learned from sihings and some talk about "seeing" Ip Man illustrate pole work with chop sticks over dim sum!!

The short clip of Ip man shooting out with the pole - shows him when he was already quite old.

Joy Chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

in reference to the Late GM Yip Mans 'way of passing information on'....

“It has been often suggested that Yip Man taught in a fairly unsystematic way, tending to pass on skills according to the student’s size and reach. It is also said that he didn’t have much time for his slower, less intelligent or less diligent students and actually taught few people the entire system in person. This in turn led to many people learning by observing others training, rather than first-hand, and that quite a few actually learn “second-hand” or even “third-hand” version of Ving Tsun filling the gaps in their knowledge with guesswork based on what they could recall seeing others do, or even worse, making it up out of their own imagination! This, of course gave rise to the variation in technique (and the interpretation of these techniques) extant today among instructors of the same generation, not to mention those of their younger Ving Tsun brothers and sisters.

Of all of Yip Man’s students, Sifu Wong Shun Leung probably spent the longest time under his tutelage because it was Sifu Wong who did most of the teaching in Yip Man’s school, whereas most of the other senior students opened their own schools and went about doing things their own way. Wong was therefore, always close to his teacher, could confer with his teacher and, observe his teacher, thereby picking up many of the subtleties which his peers never did. Sifu Wong was also the one Yip Man student who always put everything he had learned to the test, so he soon developed what can only be described as an intimate knowledge of the Ving Tsun system. Becoming known throughout Hong Kong as “Gong Sau Wong”, or “King of Talking with the Hands”, Sifu Wong took the Ving Tsun system to a whole new level and was never defeated in dozens of real life encounters with practitioners of a myriad of martial styles.”


I have been 'around' doing seminar's assisting with my old Sifu in the past , I found the variations are endless. Even my own sifu back then ...his own thinking even being a 'direct student' of the late GM himself.
At Some schools they teach in huge gym halls with no personal attention to students , who simply do a vt-bo [ trademarked by me ] and just do moves like robots , looking over to the next guys to check themselves who also do the same in a circle back to the first pair looking at the next pair ; ) vicious circle of ? what the hell am I doing ? I know I'll copy you. Only they dont know they are also being copied ... !

[Vajramusti]

Of all of Yip Man’s students, Sifu Wong Shun Leung probably spent the longest time under his tutelage because it was Sifu Wong who did most of the teaching in Yip Man’s school, whereas most of the other senior students opened their own schools and went about doing things their own way.(Gledhill))

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generalizations can have their problems of over-reaching. I have nothing but great respect for
the late great Won Shun Leung. Met him twice(San Francisco and Houston) and did brief rolling with him during his first visit to the US. His fighting brought early renown for wing chun in Hong Kong.Given his startup date he would have been the current patriarch of Ip man's wing chun family.

"Longest time?"..thats a differrnt issue.And definitions can matter. There was atleast one other person who started about two years after WSL, took prolonged regular one to one lessons from Ip man and conferred with him till the every end and has trained some pretty good wing chun people.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

From my personal research over the years, I know who definately learned the pole form from Yip Man:

Wong Shun Leung
Hawkins Cheung
Moy Yat
Lo Man Kam
Leung Ting
Lok Yiu
Tsui Sheung Tien
Yip Ching
Ho Luen

This list is by no means exhaustive, but I have seen the sets of these men and I know the set and its trademark moves with minor varaitions. Lok Yiu had one of the finest standards in the pole in Yip Man WCK. In fact, in his article way back in the HK publication, Sun Mo Hop, in the 1970's, he listed the entire set out.

All these men and their followers pass down the pole almost identical. The basic training is more or less the same, as is the set. And to top it off, their pole set coincides with the YKS/Sum Nung WCK 6.5 point pole pattern.

Some of Yip Man's people learned through demonstration of chopsticks at the dim sum table. Others have added their signature moves and variation. Many are lacking in real pole skill.

The grip is the width of the 2 hands at side of the body in SNT. The thrust is from armpit. The Sou Gwun and Dang Tiu Gwun are signature moves.

Yip Man often gave his students a choice to ether learn the pole set or knife set. Rarely did he teach both to any person. Some he taught the pole moves individually (as points) to, but no set.

When you've been around as long as I have you know what is really taught by Yip Man, and what is not.

Best regards,

[monji112000]

From my personal research over the years, I know who definately learned the pole form from Yip Man:

Wong Shun Leung
Hawkins Cheung
Moy Yat
Lo Man Kam
Leung Ting
Lok Yiu
Tsui Sheung Tien
Yip Ching
Ho Luen

I'm pretty sure Duncan Leung learned the form and its applications.

I believe the confusion about the form and its fighting applications come from the fact that it was probably added to the system. (befor Ip Man)..

Who knows..