Wing Chun Mantis anyone?

[KPM]

Though Wing Chun is my "root" system, I've always been interested in and admired Southern Mantis as well....specifically Master Gin Foon Mark's version. At various times in past years I've toyed with Mantis technique, though Wing Chun has remained my main system. I am not attached to any specific Wing Chun lineage, though I work from my own understanding of good biomechanics and what I have seen of Robert Chu's "body structure" methods. I find that this fits well with some of the Southern Mantis stuff and things are really starting to "gel" together for me. What I find my martial practice evolving into is a Wing Chun base with a strong Mantis "flavor." I know, I know....the purists will be on me for mixing systems. But isn't that the way Wing Chun came about to begin with....a mixture of Snake and Crane?

I know that James Cama teaches both Southern Mantis and Fut Sao Wing Chun, but he seems to keep them separated. Has anyone else worked on a blend of Wing Chun and Mantis? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and observations. Thanks!

[couch]

Though Wing Chun is my "root" system, I've always been interested in and admired Southern Mantis as well....specifically Master Gin Foon Mark's version. At various times in past years I've toyed with Mantis technique, though Wing Chun has remained my main system. I am not attached to any specific Wing Chun lineage, though I work from my own understanding of good biomechanics and what I have seen of Robert Chu's "body structure" methods. I find that this fits well with some of the Southern Mantis stuff and things are really starting to "gel" together for me. What I find my martial practice evolving into is a Wing Chun base with a strong Mantis "flavor." I know, I know....the purists will be on me for mixing systems. But isn't that the way Wing Chun came about to begin with....a mixture of Snake and Crane?

I know that James Cama teaches both Southern Mantis and Fut Sao Wing Chun, but he seems to keep them separated. Has anyone else worked on a blend of Wing Chun and Mantis? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and observations. Thanks!

Don't do it man. That's the dark side. LOL

[chusauli]

WCK and Mantis have different body structure.

The steps and hands are similar, but the body structure is not. I have met Master Mark Gin Foon and others in Southern Mantis. I think it is a great system, but a closed door system. Finding great instruction is hard.

[KPM]

WCK and Mantis have different body structure.

The steps and hands are similar, but the body structure is not. I have met Master Mark Gin Foon and others in Southern Mantis. I think it is a great system, but a closed door system. Finding great instruction is hard.

---I agree with both of your points. What I'm working on is using those similar hands and steps, but not necessarily their body structure. I'm not looking to study Southern Mantis as another system. I'm looking to Southern Mantis for inspiration on ways to give my Wing Chun a Mantis "flavor." So not really a combo of Wing Chun and a specific Southern Mantis system, but rather the idea of "how would I do some of their Mantis stuff with a Wing Chun engine."

[Lee Chiang Po]

Just as long as you remember that black and white will always make gray. Good and bad will always make mediocre.
I have seen Mantis, and it wastes too much energy, and the horse you ride is way too big. You asked for opinions, and that was mine.

[KPM]

Just as long as you remember that black and white will always make gray. Good and bad will always make mediocre.
I have seen Mantis, and it wastes too much energy, and the horse you ride is way too big. You asked for opinions, and that was mine.

---No problem. I appreciate the feedback. Black and white only make gray if you see things in absolutes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that, if there are things in SPM that you like and you wanna add them to your WC, that is one thing, mixing they two is probably not a good idea.
Like Robert said, the structure is different, perhaps too different.
Of course, anything can be customized...

I think that WC and SPM probably over lap in most of the areas that are their "core", but then again, maybe you see in SPM something you don't in WC...

[KPM]

There is another element in my Wing Chun "evolution." When I studied Pin Sun with Jim Roselando, I really liked the way the material was organized into San Sik. So when I went back to my Yip Man WCK, I separated my Yip Man forms into San Sik. Following the San Sik organization, I practice each short section solo stationary and then start adding various footwork patterns. I work each section on the dummy. I work the application of each section in a two-man training with a partner. Finally I work each section with the butterfly knives. I have included a Mantis "flavor" by doing some of the San Sik with a little different "energy" that brings out that Mantis "feel." I have also introduced some new San Sik that are "inspired by" some of the SPM material but that still have a Wing Chun biomechanic. Many of the San Sik also have application with a tactical folder held in reverse grip. This is a work in progress, but I have the first level material worked out pretty well and have been teaching it to two private students.

So what is evolving for me is Wing Chun from primarily a Yip Man root and influence from Pin Sun....organized into a San Sik curriculum...with a definite Southern Mantis "flavor" or "feel." For me this has made my WCK more "flowing" and has given it more application with a tactical folder.

[TenTigers]

Chu-Sifu, could you go into more detail on the "different engines" concept?

[kung fu fighter]

What's the difference between mantis body structure and bio-mechanics and wing chun body structure?

[jo]

Just as long as you remember that black and white will always make gray. Good and bad will always make mediocre.
I have seen Mantis, and it wastes too much energy, and the horse you ride is way too big. You asked for opinions, and that was mine.

Whose mantis are you referring to?

In reference to energy, southern mantis should be efficient. As the old poem says, there should be blood within three blows.

Breath control is essential in the Nan Quan arts.

Perhaps you just saw somebody huffing and puffing? That is not good southern mantis.


In reference to stances, as taught by the late Lum Wing Fay, the knees are close together to protect the groin and to facilitate movement/entry. "Closing the body" is essential in this branch.

As taught by the late Ip Sui, his horse was a bit more "forward oriented", but still not very wide.
But then, he was able to retract his testicles and withstand strong kicks to his groin.

I guess you just saw some bad stances. It could happen to anyone.

-jo

[Wu Wei Wu]

hi,

The book 'Complete Wing Chun' mentions that my Sifu's (Leung, Kwok-Keung) Wing Chun had a distinct Mantis flavour.

If you have any questions PM me.

Suki

[KPM]

Hi Jo!

In reference to energy, southern mantis should be efficient. As the old poem says, there should be blood within three blows.

---I agree. But it may be a little different type of "efficiency" than what most WCK guys are used to. It could be argued that Mantis is a little less direct. They sometimes use several hand motions to set up the strike rather than striking directly like WCK. But I see this as bridging from further out. So it really isn't any less efficient. Have you ever teased a real Mantis with a stick? It will run right up the stick and your arm to get to you.


In reference to stances, as taught by the late Lum Wing Fay, the knees are close together to protect the groin and to facilitate movement/entry. "Closing the body" is essential in this branch.

---Again, I agree. SPM guys normally maintain at stance that is a bit wider than most WCK, but not by much. But they also sometimes lock out the rear leg into a more "traditional" front stance, which WCK never does. That might be what Lee was referring to.


But then, he was able to retract his testicles and withstand strong kicks to his groin.

---Have you seen that clip from "Mind, Body, and Kickin Moves"? That was pretty impressive!

[HardWork8]

---I agree with both of your points. What I'm working on is using those similar hands and steps, but not necessarily their body structure. I'm not looking to study Southern Mantis as another system. I'm looking to Southern Mantis for inspiration on ways to give my Wing Chun a Mantis "flavor." So not really a combo of Wing Chun and a specific Southern Mantis system, but rather the idea of "how would I do some of their Mantis stuff with a Wing Chun engine."

I believe that you would need good instruction of Mantis even if it was just to use aspects of it as an "inspiration". And as Chu sifu pointed out, it is very difficult to find good instruction.

Or do you have instruction already? If so, then your quest would be a lot easier.

[TenTigers]

"They sometimes use several hand motions to set up the strike rather than striking directly like WCK."
I have never seen this in Lum Wing-Fay's Jook Lum Mantis. Quite the contrary, strikes usually intercept the opponent's intention and strike directly to the target, preferring to slip in,while angling the body,deflecting the strike with the other hand, or as you described the creeping up the arm-the first hand strikes first,while the forearm is 'blocking', or even 'blocking' on the way out.
Where have you seen the mantis you described? Just curious.