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Thread: Sparring/Randori......or not?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue View Post

    BTW, What's the main differences between levels I, II, III & IV?

    There are four different courses taught at the Combatives Center:

    Combatives Train the Trainer – Skill level 1: a 40-hour, one week course. It is tailored for developing the instructor base necessary to get basic combatives to every soldier. Students learn to teach the techniques of basic combatives. The Army's goal is to have one skill level 1 trainer per platoon.

    Combatives Train the Trainer – Skill level 2: an 80-hour, two-week course that builds on the skills introduced in the basic course. It is tailored to teach the more advanced techniques which illuminate why the basic techniques are performed as they are as well as the teaching philosophy/methodology of the program. The Army's goal is to have one skill level 2 trainer per company.

    Combatives Train the Trainer – Skill level 3: a 160-hour, four-week course that builds on the skills taught in the previous two courses. It is designed to take the skills that have been until now been stand alone, and integrate them into unit-level training. The Army's goal is to have one skill level 3 trainer per battalion.

    Combatives Train the Trainer – Skill level 4: a 160-hour, four week course designed to provide master trainers. The Army's goal is to have one skill level 4 trainer per brigade.

    Trainers at skill level 3 are or higher are certified to teach all courses lower than their certification level. Skill level 1 and 2 courses are now usually taught and participants certified at the unit level. Skill level 3 and 4 courses are usually held at Ft. Benning, GA. A Soldier who has a level 3 certification can certify other Soldiers to be skill level 1. Soldiers who are skill level 4 can certify other Soldiers to be skill level 1 or 2.
    This does not include unit-level training, which is of course done by the Instructors at the Platoon and Company level, inspected and overseen by the Battalion and Brigade-level personnel.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  2. #32
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    Alright, I've derailed my own thread long enough. MAC/MCMAP discussion can be directed to a new thread that can be started in the Street/Reality forum.

    Back to the sparring discussion....
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  3. #33
    Has the topic of sparring in TMA been covered or do people have such a view of TMA that it just does not matter?
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue View Post
    Has the topic of sparring in TMA been covered or do people have such a view of TMA that it just does not matter?
    Sparring has always been a part of TMA, always.
    Free sparring or full contact sparring is rather "new", simply because of the inherent dangers that people in the past were not able to deal with.
    Not the case now where, protective equipment being common place, we can go ful contact on a regular basis and test our skills VS skill practioners without having to "kill" anyone.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #35
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    See I think the main fuel in the TMA / MMA debate (aside from the usual 'my sensei can beat up your sifu' nonsense) is the mistaken notion that full contact sparring and resistance drilling are new.

    The fact that these techniques were abandoned by many martial arts in the second half of the twentieth century, for reasons detailed previously by Ross and I, does not mean they were never previously applied.
    Simon McNeil
    ___________________________________________

    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    See I think the main fuel in the TMA / MMA debate (aside from the usual 'my sensei can beat up your sifu' nonsense) is the mistaken notion that full contact sparring and resistance drilling are new.

    The fact that these techniques were abandoned by many martial arts in the second half of the twentieth century, for reasons detailed previously by Ross and I, does not mean they were never previously applied.
    Actually, full contact sparring is "new" in the sense that, how we do it NOW, with gear and such, is new.
    In the old days, sparring had to be controlled in some form or another.
    Now, perhaps because of challenge matches and the reality of the world at tat time, people didn't need full contact sparring as much since they coudl test their skills in other ways.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #37
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    I beg to differ. Combative sport predates protective combative sporting equipment.

    EG: Lei Tai challenge matches.
    Bare-Knuckle Boxing.
    German Student Dueling.

    These last two, especially, were sport and predated the equipment used to make the sport safe.
    Simon McNeil
    ___________________________________________

    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    I beg to differ. Combative sport predates protective combative sporting equipment.

    EG: Lei Tai challenge matches.
    Bare-Knuckle Boxing.
    German Student Dueling.

    These last two, especially, were sport and predated the equipment used to make the sport safe.
    SPARRING Simon, SPARRING is what we are talking about.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #39
    posted this before, but since it came up here

    Traditional Martial Arts (TMA)
    Vs.
    Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)
    Do you have to take sides?

    In recent years, there has been growing tension between what people call Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and the new Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). The new MMA movement has its share of aggressive advocates, often aggressively promoting what they do in ways that offends TMA practitioners. There is also a lot of truth in the claim that some TMA people are just too resistant to change. The new MMA movement is foreign to them and some feel threatened, increasingly so as MMA goes “mainstream.”

    As a person with an extensive TMA background who now runs a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) program as his school’s main curriculum I really want you to understand that in reality these are artificial distinctions. It isn’t about making a choice. There are no sides to take. If you are a martial artist, you should be thrilled to see the fighting arts finally getting the attention they deserve. You should also take this opportunity to re-invigorate your practice and your school.

    If you haven’t already done so, sit down and watch a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) event. Straight punches, hook punches, front kicks, round kicks, side kicks, foot sweeps, throws, takedowns, joint locks and chokes. These are techniques we’ve all practiced, which we have in our self defense programs, which we have in our forms, sets, Hyungs or Kata. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) didn’t invent the techniques, but they do practice them differently. The difference between Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is not “what” they train; it is “how” they train.

    Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is often dismissed as nothing more than a “sport”. Self appointed defenders of Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) insist that since “sports” have rules, have restrictions, have protective equipment, judges, referees and officials they are not really “martial arts”. By this they mean that so called “self defense” is about fighting in the street, where there are no rules. This is, in my opinion, a rather limited and uninformed view on the subject.
    The vast majority of my students, approximately 90%, will NEVER engage in any sort of sport or competition. That isn’t what my school is about, but my school’s program is certainly a Mixed Martial Art (MMA) program! My school’s entire curriculum, like all MMA programs, is built upon the importance of functional training. Today there are a lot of ways to describe this concept, but I actually prefer the term Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, coined. Dr. Kano was the grandfather of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and without him we would not have Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Sambo or San Da. The term Dr. Kano used was “randori”.

    Randori is different from sport and/or competition (which Dr. Kano called “shiai”). Everyone who does Judo practices randori while many never engage in competition. Randori means practicing the techniques in a realistic manner with resistance. It is commonly thought of as “sparring” but the concept is actually much broader. Only through such training can a student develop functional skills and learn to confront the stress and adrenaline a real fight will present them with.

    Those who argue that a sport or competition is more limited than a life-or-death conflict on the street are missing the point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to recreate those situations, so how can we best prepare our students for a situation they have never faced before? Regardless of what you want to call it (randori, “live” training, sparring, sport or competition) the process is what is important. It is not about winning or losing. They are simply relatively safe methods of engaging in situations which, while certainly not identical to an assault, approach these conditions as much as reasonably possible. The process is what is important.

    Consider what you would need to survive a life-or-death conflict? First, you would need the tools, offensive and defensive, to get the job done. Second, you must be proficient enough in the techniques to use them upon an opponent who is knowledgeable, resisting them and also attempting to launch their own attack. This ability requires not only perfecting the technique but developing your sense of space and range, the ability to see openings, reaction time and personal strategy. Include into this equation the possibility that the opponent may be using techniques and strategies different than your own.

    Finally, do you have both the physical and mental condition to engage in a struggle such as this? Do you have the strength, endurance, flexibility? Do you have the determination? Will you fall apart under the stress and adrenaline rush, freeze and forget everything you have learned? It has certainly happened in the past to many practitioners. Remember, if you have not been hit or thrown full power (slamming into the ground) you don’t know how you will react to conditions such as these. This is a reality very few students studying Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) are forced to deal with in current programs.

    Despite criticisms of the limitation of combat sports, they do in fact provide experiences that are hard to replace with more traditional methods of training like forms or pre-arranged attack and defense. A boxer has been punched so many times that he no longer freezes when a blow connects. A wrestler or Judo fighter has been thrown many times and is accustomed to it. These three individuals are also used to exchange, working with an opponent who is both defending and attacking. They are also used to performing under high stress conditions and for extended periods of time. They benefit from experience gained by competition, i.e. sporting adaptations of what were once strictly combat/self-defense methods. Thus, combat sports allow the student to develop the “attributes” of a warrior, including the appropriate mental attitude.

    In conclusion, it is a mistake to think that Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) programs are based upon sport or competition. Sport and/or competition are for some a natural extension of randori (live practice) but it is not the central concept of the program. The central concept of a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) program is randori (live practice); heavy bag, focus mitt, Thai pad and partner drills that are realistic and challenge the student with progressively increasingly levels of resistance.

    For these reasons, I do not see any contradiction between being an instructor of a Traditional Martial Art (TMA) and yet still incorporating the Mixed Martial Art (MMA) approach to training. In fact, if you are an instructor who really cares about his students then you should be excited to discover new ways to help them be the very best martial artists they can be. This book will serve as your guide in this process.
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

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    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
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    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
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    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    SPARRING Simon, SPARRING is what we are talking about.

    I'd assert that the german stuedent duelists saw what they did as a form of sparring... albeit one that left permanent scars.
    Simon McNeil
    ___________________________________________

    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    I'd assert that the german stuedent duelists saw what they did as a form of sparring... albeit one that left permanent scars.
    In that regard, yes.
    So did they Kenjutsu-ka of Japan, with wooden bokuto though, but it wasn't full contact, hard contact yes, not full.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #42
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    Simon's rules of martial arts nomenclature:

    #1: If it leaves facial scars it's full contact.
    Simon McNeil
    ___________________________________________

    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    posted this before, but since it came up here

    Traditional Martial Arts (TMA)
    Vs.
    Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)
    Do you have to take sides?

    In recent years, there has been growing tension between what people call Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and the new Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). The new MMA movement has its share of aggressive advocates, often aggressively promoting what they do in ways that offends TMA practitioners. There is also a lot of truth in the claim that some TMA people are just too resistant to change. The new MMA movement is foreign to them and some feel threatened, increasingly so as MMA goes “mainstream.”

    As a person with an extensive TMA background who now runs a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) program as his school’s main curriculum I really want you to understand that in reality these are artificial distinctions. It isn’t about making a choice. There are no sides to take. If you are a martial artist, you should be thrilled to see the fighting arts finally getting the attention they deserve. You should also take this opportunity to re-invigorate your practice and your school.

    If you haven’t already done so, sit down and watch a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) event. Straight punches, hook punches, front kicks, round kicks, side kicks, foot sweeps, throws, takedowns, joint locks and chokes. These are techniques we’ve all practiced, which we have in our self defense programs, which we have in our forms, sets, Hyungs or Kata. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) didn’t invent the techniques, but they do practice them differently. The difference between Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) and Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is not “what” they train; it is “how” they train.

    Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is often dismissed as nothing more than a “sport”. Self appointed defenders of Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) insist that since “sports” have rules, have restrictions, have protective equipment, judges, referees and officials they are not really “martial arts”. By this they mean that so called “self defense” is about fighting in the street, where there are no rules. This is, in my opinion, a rather limited and uninformed view on the subject.
    The vast majority of my students, approximately 90%, will NEVER engage in any sort of sport or competition. That isn’t what my school is about, but my school’s program is certainly a Mixed Martial Art (MMA) program! My school’s entire curriculum, like all MMA programs, is built upon the importance of functional training. Today there are a lot of ways to describe this concept, but I actually prefer the term Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, coined. Dr. Kano was the grandfather of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and without him we would not have Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Sambo or San Da. The term Dr. Kano used was “randori”.

    Randori is different from sport and/or competition (which Dr. Kano called “shiai”). Everyone who does Judo practices randori while many never engage in competition. Randori means practicing the techniques in a realistic manner with resistance. It is commonly thought of as “sparring” but the concept is actually much broader. Only through such training can a student develop functional skills and learn to confront the stress and adrenaline a real fight will present them with.

    Those who argue that a sport or competition is more limited than a life-or-death conflict on the street are missing the point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to recreate those situations, so how can we best prepare our students for a situation they have never faced before? Regardless of what you want to call it (randori, “live” training, sparring, sport or competition) the process is what is important. It is not about winning or losing. They are simply relatively safe methods of engaging in situations which, while certainly not identical to an assault, approach these conditions as much as reasonably possible. The process is what is important.

    Consider what you would need to survive a life-or-death conflict? First, you would need the tools, offensive and defensive, to get the job done. Second, you must be proficient enough in the techniques to use them upon an opponent who is knowledgeable, resisting them and also attempting to launch their own attack. This ability requires not only perfecting the technique but developing your sense of space and range, the ability to see openings, reaction time and personal strategy. Include into this equation the possibility that the opponent may be using techniques and strategies different than your own.

    Finally, do you have both the physical and mental condition to engage in a struggle such as this? Do you have the strength, endurance, flexibility? Do you have the determination? Will you fall apart under the stress and adrenaline rush, freeze and forget everything you have learned? It has certainly happened in the past to many practitioners. Remember, if you have not been hit or thrown full power (slamming into the ground) you don’t know how you will react to conditions such as these. This is a reality very few students studying Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) are forced to deal with in current programs.

    Despite criticisms of the limitation of combat sports, they do in fact provide experiences that are hard to replace with more traditional methods of training like forms or pre-arranged attack and defense. A boxer has been punched so many times that he no longer freezes when a blow connects. A wrestler or Judo fighter has been thrown many times and is accustomed to it. These three individuals are also used to exchange, working with an opponent who is both defending and attacking. They are also used to performing under high stress conditions and for extended periods of time. They benefit from experience gained by competition, i.e. sporting adaptations of what were once strictly combat/self-defense methods. Thus, combat sports allow the student to develop the “attributes” of a warrior, including the appropriate mental attitude.

    In conclusion, it is a mistake to think that Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) programs are based upon sport or competition. Sport and/or competition are for some a natural extension of randori (live practice) but it is not the central concept of the program. The central concept of a Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) program is randori (live practice); heavy bag, focus mitt, Thai pad and partner drills that are realistic and challenge the student with progressively increasingly levels of resistance.

    For these reasons, I do not see any contradiction between being an instructor of a Traditional Martial Art (TMA) and yet still incorporating the Mixed Martial Art (MMA) approach to training. In fact, if you are an instructor who really cares about his students then you should be excited to discover new ways to help them be the very best martial artists they can be. This book will serve as your guide in this process.
    You have prostate pinched the correct.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #44
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    Daido Juku (Kudo) fighting, with pretty good closeups of the gear:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqxwB...eature=related
    Last edited by Wood Dragon; 06-12-2008 at 08:32 PM.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wood Dragon View Post
    Daido Juku (Kudo) fighting, with pretty good closeups of the gear:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqxwB...eature=related
    I've done that fighting, the gear is ok, the new one is better than the old one, safer, less fogging up, and the good thing is that you can go all out and not damage your pretty face
    Of course, like most head gear of its type, it tends to "intensify" the concussion factor for various reasons so you have to be more cautious about getting hit in the head.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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