Need for education reform

[Oso]

we need everyone in every capacity.

and don't get me started on college. I've met very few people that went to college and then went on to work in their area of study. college right after high school seems to be just an extension of high school but with more alcohol and sex.

I argued with a friend of mine over her son. He had some emotional issues that caused periods of anger and depression as an early teen but got control over it and did really well in HS. So, of course he had to go to college. I had been saying that I felt he would benefit from getting a part time job in HS but no, he had to focus on his grades. Well, he went off to college, stayed in his room and played games the entire semester and flunked every class. After the first month, he never even went to class. Now, he's working and taking the first of several course to get Microsoft certified w/o the three R's and will probably do well.

enh, not a terribly cohesive point there...I think that if he had worked some in HS he would have gotten a better appreciation for time in general and if he had gotten the right job it might have steered him closer to what he wanted to do instead of wasting money in a semester of the three R's. I know that's why I didn't even think about college: I was tired of people telling me what to read and how to write about it.

[unkokusai]

I know that's why I didn't even think about college: I was tired of people telling me what to read and how to write about it.

That's why? Because you didn't want people telling you what to do?

[Oso]

no. I think that it's time for a revamping of what is considered literature and 'good' books. Some of the crap we have to read in HS is ridiculous.

[unkokusai]

no. I think that it's time for a revamping of what is considered literature and 'good' books. Some of the crap we have to read in HS is ridiculous.

Like what?

[Oso]

like reading Shakespeare out loud in class...an English class, not a drama class.
Shakespeare was never written to be read but seen/heard.

you name it, pretty much everything I had to read in HS, I hated. There is not enough diversity in the curriculum to catch a larger percentage of students therefore less people get turned on to reading. I pretty much believe that it doesn't really matter what you read as long as you read.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shakespeare, the greatest writer in the English language is 'crap'?

Wow, just wow....

LOL !
Dude, read what he wrote...

like reading Shakespeare out loud in class...an English class, not a drama class.
Shakespeare was never written to be read but seen/heard.

[Nick Forrer]

I pretty much believe that it doesn't really matter what you read as long as you read.

Are you joking? There's no qualitative difference between D H Lawrence and J K Rowling?

[Oso]

sorry, I don't think he's crap...reading him aloud in an english class where the majority of students could give two cents is crap. Those kids aren't going to get turned on to him at all in that situation and will get more turned off of the idea of reading, drama and some old dead white guy.

I personally like most shakespeare I've seen. However, if I did think he was crap, it would be ok too. I like a lot of other stuff that is written well. That's what matters. Your type of opinion that someone else thinks something you like to read is crap is part of the problem.

[Oso]

yea, you're right about what I wrote...see my 'lazy' comment earlier

that's why I apologized and corrected

[SimonM]

no. I think that it's time for a revamping of what is considered literature and 'good' books. Some of the crap we have to read in HS is ridiculous.

I minored in English in university. We have much better crap to read there.

[Oso]

Are you joking? There's no qualitative difference between D H Lawrence and J K Rowling?

not really.

why is DHL better than JKR?

I believe that more kids will grow up to read more by being exposed to something fun to read like JKR (I'm assuming that it's fun to read, I've never read them) than by DHL. Reading and reading MORE is bound to be better than not reading at all.

Much of what is considered 'good' is dated for here and now. Kids aren't going to relate to a story set in an environment they don't get.

[Oso]

Kids should only read what they want to read? Most kids would like to eat nothing but junk food. Is that an argument for giving them Mcdonalds all day?

No, of course not.



Shakespeares themes and subjects are universal and timeless. Thats the whole point of them. They dont just reflect Tudor England. Maybe you missed that.

Ok, fine. but if it's boring as hell for a 21st century kid to read then they won't get it either. There is not enough diversity to reach the most number of kids possible.

I would say the problem is that peoples personal likes and dislikes determine what they feel should be taught in schools (as in your case) rather than looking at more objective criteria.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We read Shakespeare in HS in Portugal, along with Camoes of course.
Had zero to do with language skills obviously and all to do with great literature.

[SimonM]

The language in Shakespeare is difficult...but thats an argument for, not against it.

I've never found the language in Shakespeare to be difficult. Chaucer is a bit of a challenge. The "green knight" poet more so... Shakespeare - easy.

[Merryprankster]

Funny the accountability thing came up.

The fundamental problem I have with No Child Left Behind is that it places far too much weight on quantifying SKILL SETS, not education. Evaluation of training is quantifiable; I can tell you easily if somebody got this or that definition wrong, or spelled a word badly, or got the math wrong, etc.

What about writing an essay or a theme? Do they do that in a No Child test? Critical reasoning? Analogies? etc....

No Child is an artifact of the industrial age, IMO, where that type of training may have been the right answer. And maybe such tests are still valuable up until, say, the age of 8 or 10.

Evaluation of education is far fuzzier. It's a qualitative thing. What makes a good essay or theme? The judgment of "experts." Is your argument flawed? Who can tell you? Why is it flawed.....

We're obsessed in this country with evaluating things quantitatively. But, a significant portion of the knowledge we possess and pass on is qualitative AND, much of it is tacit in nature. You cannot explicate tacit knowledge for a variety of reasons, but the impact of that knowledge often makes the difference between something bad and something good. Translations come immediately to mind. What makes a good translation is hardly a quantitative thing. But wars could be fought over bad ones.

And so, my point is that yes, the evaluation is SUBJECTIVE, but that is the nature of knowledge. People are considered experts in their field not because of an education or training pre-requisite, but because other people have judged them to be experts. That is qualitative evaluation, hands down. And a social animals, we are exquisitely equipped to make those types of qualitative judgments...if we weren't, google wouldn't work.

For accountability with teachers I'd rather see the following:

1. Increased pay
2. The trade off is that tenure is unattainable until, say, your 10th year....
3. Tenure is reserved for the top 50% of performers IN THE STATE (not the school, to avoid school jumping for tenure).
4. An evaluation system, much like the military officer FITREP or Officer Evaluation form, or the federal government Personnel evaluations, that includes quantitative rankings in performance dimensions, coupled with strong qualitative evaluations describing performance and personal qualities that contribute to performance. Semi-Annual for teachers under 4 years experience. Annual thereafter until retirement.
5. The bottom 15% of teachers each year are offered "remedial" help. Continued performance in that category results in being fired. If this occurs when you are tenured, your tenure is suspended for one year, pending re-evaluation. If you still can't hack it, goodbye.
6. Incentive pay for vital subjects

Anybody else want to add to this list?