Stone Warrior?

[David Jamieson]

Claims to be an 8th dan in Shorin Ryu Karate and the man is in his 40's at best.

Who the heck ever heard of a real 8th dan in a well known Okinawan system at that age?

As a former Isshin karateka, I can confirm this. Those levels tend to be conferred on gents past the 60 year mark or more.

8th is really high up there. Even in Shotokan.

[Brule]

Might be best to leave this thread alone considering what has happened around here the last couple of days. A lot of colourful language in it that could cause some to be upset.

[David Jamieson]

Might be best to leave this thread alone considering what has happened around here the last couple of days. A lot of colourful language in it that could cause some to be upset.

If this were the one, it would be gone already.

[Brule]

Not saying this was the one, just suggesting to leave it alone is all.

[Kevin73]

Since I was the one who started this thread, I will give my feedback on the "Stone Warrior" program.

It is based on dynamic tension and has you do ALOT of it. My thoughts were that the time would be better spent doing other training. That is NOT to say that dynamic tension doesn't have it's place in your training. My form of karate utilizes Sanchin kata so I was used to the tension idea of training, but even in those styles that use Sanchin they recommend going through it one time in the morning, afternoon, night after you have learned it. NOT spending close to an hour and a half doing it.

If you are really wanting to do different dynamic tension exercises and they aren't a part of your system, I would recommend the old book by Sifu Wong called "Dynamic Strength". It is alot cheaper and the exercises work all of the major groups anyways. http://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Streng...namic+strength

Or I would use Wing Lam's Iron Body training for some good isometric exercises.

Luckily, I was able to pick up the set from ebay for a very low price. I would have been VERY disappointed paying more for it.

[md1]

Part of the system I teach / study are 2 different "dynamic tension " sets plus 52 single DT exercises that are supposed to be our strength training with a combination done daily. Mostly now I just use it to supplement my training instead of it being the be all end all.

I would be willing to bet that if they had the knowledge and the tools we now have they would be training more like the athletes of today.

[David Jamieson]

I would be willing to bet that if they had the knowledge and the tools we now have they would be training more like the athletes of today.

Look how many people are going back in time for training methods though.

Clubs, Kettle Bells, stone balls, stone locks, pinch stones, heavy jars, heavy training weapons, and those aren't even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to devices for training.

I don't think people of today are better or stronger. Heck, we have to force hardship onto ourselves in order to temper our mettle.

Back in the day, life was just tougher an ergo, your average human lived a harder life and was a whole lot tougher than your average human nw. Barring nobility of course who have constantly been soft namby pambys for all time.

Anyway, take a look at the last issue from KFM and check out Master Tu's training hall and devices. You might change your mind about the statement I quoted you on here.

[Kevin73]

Look how many people are going back in time for training methods though.

Clubs, Kettle Bells, stone balls, stone locks, pinch stones, heavy jars, heavy training weapons, and those aren't even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to devices for training.

I don't think people of today are better or stronger. Heck, we have to force hardship onto ourselves in order to temper our mettle.

Back in the day, life was just tougher an ergo, your average human lived a harder life and was a whole lot tougher than your average human nw. Barring nobility of course who have constantly been soft namby pambys for all time.

Anyway, take a look at the last issue from KFM and check out Master Tu's training hall and devices. You might change your mind about the statement I quoted you on here.

I agree. I looked through a copy of the 72 Consumate Arts of the Shaolin and many of the things listed were equivalents of modern day lifts (squat/deadlift/overhead pressing etc.) I think that much of the conditioning got lost when the business/commercial model took over. It's much easier to sell that ANYONE can do it and the weak always beats the strong if you train in our method. Always kind of ironic if you translate "kung fu" as "hard work" isn't it?

[md1]

Look how many people are going back in time for training methods though.

Anyway, take a look at the last issue from KFM and check out Master Tu's training hall and devices. You might change your mind about the statement I quoted you on here.

I guess by that I meant supplementing new and different training Ideas as well as keeping the things of value from KF's past.
There is no question things were more "Raw" back in the day and developed a very Raw strength, tons to be said about that hence the reason why I haven't discarded ANY of my training routines from the days gone bye.

[SoCo KungFu]

I actually used to know the SW exercise. I forget how many reps I actually had built up to but basically I did it every day for about a year. This was about 11 or 12 years ago so its foggy but I think it was taking upwards of 45 min to an hour to finish. All in all, it was a lot of time wasted. Its very hard for me to put on weight, even still as I've gotten slightly older. But in about 5 weeks of regular "traditional" weight training like most of you all have posted on many times here, I had far better results than that year of SW.

Having seen other footage of the Greed Dragon guys, anyone with 3 functional brain cells can see they did not get that big by doing SW, regardless what they claim in the vids.

[IronFist]

I actually used to know the SW exercise. I forget how many reps I actually had built up to but basically I did it every day for about a year. This was about 11 or 12 years ago so its foggy but I think it was taking upwards of 45 min to an hour to finish. All in all, it was a lot of time wasted. Its very hard for me to put on weight, even still as I've gotten slightly older. But in about 5 weeks of regular "traditional" weight training like most of you all have posted on many times here, I had far better results than that year of SW.

My experience matches that exactly.

I did once have someone tell me that the reason I didn't put on much size from Stone Warrior is because I didn't take it all the way up to 36 reps per exercise.

You know, because 36 reps is the magic number. At 35 reps nothing happens, but once you do that 36th rep your body goes "hey, it's time to start getting bigger now!"

But really, a month or so of weight lifting was better in every possible way than a year of Stone Warrior.

Well, unless your goal is to be able to hold dynamic tension for a long time. Stone Warrior is better for that.

To be fair, I was not eating the way I needed to eat to gain mass while I was doing Stone Warrior. Now, that being said, I was not eating the way I needed to eat to gain mass when I started weight lifting, either, yet I still got stronger and bigger in the first month of weight lifting than I did in a year of Stone Warrior. Even if I was eating a lot more food while I was doing Stone Warrior, long dynamic tension sets do not provide the proper stimulus for muscle growth or raw strength increase so it wouldn't have made a difference.

So my diet was the same for both.

To reiterate:

Stone Warrior pros:
- it's kind of cool
- develops the ability to hold dynamic tension for long periods of time (if that's your goal)

Stone Warrior cons:
- doesn't really build strength or size despite all the hype
- depending on how long you do it, holding all that constant tension for long periods of time may actually be bad for you (no evidence here, just a guess... cuz come on... holding tension at "100% effort" for 90 minutes can't be good for you). And make sure you breathe! Holding your breath during this stuff isn't good.
- takes forever. You could drive to the gym, lift weights, shower, and drive back home in less time than it takes to do the complete Stone Warrior set
- dynamic tension may be helpful when it comprises a small (less than 5%) portion of your workout, but not when it's the entire thing

Weight lifting pros:
- proven size and/or strength building exercise
- you can evaluate your progress (for example, last week I could lift 100lbs and this week I can lift 105 pounds, therefore I got stronger)
- doesn't take that much time

Weight lifting cons:
- you can injure yourself with bad form

Overall I wouldn't really recommend Stone Warrior to anyone except maybe as an occasional variety thing. Maybe if done without tension it could be a good general workout like a slow form.

[SoCo KungFu]

Lol I remember one day my brother and I challenged each other to see who could do 100 reps of each motion. We both ended up making it through around the same time, no surprise we were pacing off each other. At the end it was cool for all of about 5 minutes and then I couldn't help but wonder wtf the point of that was. Wasted a perfectly beautiful Saturday.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Although not Stone Warrior, I have done dynamic tension training when I was exploring the Hakka Tai Tzu stuff.

What I found is that is develops a "Packing" of power, which is violently released like an explosion going off.

However, the way I was taught, was to train the tension/packing aspect, followed by the violent release of it, rather than trying to stay tense through 100% of the motion. I was also taught some specific applications where this is used in the techniques, so I know when to do what.

I never seemed to get any muscular development, so far as strength is concerned. Most of the power was developed in the core.

When inter mixed with weight lifting, I noticed faster gains though...but I think thats just because I was doing more in the same workout just due to the addition of it into an otherwise unchanged lifting routine.

What it did develop was the violent release of all that packed in tension during the execution of various techniques that used it. Most were in super close and were launched fairly quickly, like in the time it takes to sneeze. In fact, in application it does sort of "Feel" like your entire body did in fact just sneeze.

One thing I have noticed about that style of training, is that it seems to make it so you do not feel impacts anywhere near as much. So outside of some very sport specific bio/mechanical training, for those using techniques that require that type of power generation; I can see that it would develop some greater Iron Body skills if taken to an extreme.

[Kevin73]

I will have to find the study, but I just recently read study about the benefits of dynamic tension. Basically the study showed that it did not increase muscle size, if trained as an isometric exercise it was beneficial in increasing strength at the point of the hold to help athletes get over their sticking points.

It also allowed more muscle fibers to be recruited to "flex" which helps with the neuro path ways and indirectly lead to more strength through traditional lifting techniques.

I can't remember the last part of it, but it had to do with increasing beneficial hormones in the body that would help with recuperation and muscle building when coupled with traditional lifting techniques.

[bawang]

I can't remember the last part of it, but it had to do with increasing beneficial hormones in the body that would help with recuperation and muscle building when coupled with traditional lifting techniques.

this is the main benefit i get from qigong sets, both soft and "hard" qigong.

i do it after weight lifting and it reduces muscle and joint soreness and i recover faster