Stone Warrior?

[lkfmdc]

This is interesting

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...62&postcount=5

[IronWeasel]

This is interesting

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...62&postcount=5

I feel a thread merge coming on...

[PalmStriker]

So Be It. https://www.google.com/search?q=Merg...w=1440&bih=807

[IronFist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKfqAbvl9nU

I have the original Stone Warrior video with Sifu Allen.

I watched some of this Laoshih Sifu Jeffrey Glanz guy's other videos. That's different from what Sifu Allen teaches. Some of the movements are similar, and some are way off. This dude also keeps talking about "chi expression." IIRC Sifu Allen was pretty clear that Stone Warrior is external only (with the exception of one of the movements).

Let me clarify here, though. I don't think there's anything special or magical about Sifu Allen's Stone Warrior. It's a big long dynamic tension set. The idea is that doing the dynamic tension will "build strength through those movements (which are ideally based around martial movements that you would actually use in a fight)."

So I'm not saying one way is better than the other, and I'm not sure how much strength a big long dynamic tension set will actually build, anyway. I did Stone Warrior for about a year and then switched to weight lifting and I was pretty weak when I started weight lifting. I did have pretty good muscular endurance, which is to be expected considering I was spending 30 minutes each day doing a dynamic tension set, but that type of muscular endurance doesn't translate to strength, nor is it necessarily applicable to a fighting situation.

I sure did think I was a bad ass at the time, though.

I think dynamic tension may have its place in a certain type of strength training program, but maybe like 5% of the overall work being done. Certainly not the majority of it. I can't even remember the exact reason; something about overriding neurological limitations or something, but IIRC it won't really be effective if it's not a supplement to resistance training (weight lifting). Your muscles NEED progressive resistance from an outside force (weights) in order to get stronger over time.

Stone Warrior is a cool little set, though. Most of the movements do appear to mimic traditional kung fu style fighting applications. And at least Sifu Allen emphasized strength. I think his point was "most kung fu people do not have the strength required to use the techniques they have learned." It kind of flew in the face of the whole "you don't need to be strong" idea that TMA liked to talk about.

I agree with Sifu Allen that strength is important, but I don't think Stone Warrior is the ideal way to get there. Your time would be much more efficiently spent doing squat, deadlift, and a press a few times a week. That would be much better than the 90 minutes DAILY you're supposed to spend on Stone Warrior.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To expand on what IF said above ( to which I agree with pretty much everything):
Dynamic tension ( isokinetic) strength training has its benefits but they pale ( in terms of building pure strength) to weights simply because there is no "standard" way to progressively increase the resistance, which is crucial for building pure strength.
This is even MORE the case in a set liek SW which is far TOO long to build anything BUT muscular endurance

The issue with isokinetic exercise is that you can't quantify the % of muscle strength you are using, in short you are either doing maximum tension or less than max, but you can't know how much less.

Dynamic tension means that you tense the muscles in a given movement and then move THROUGH the range of motion ( as opposed to isometrics where you stay at a specific point in the ROM). Because you are tensing every muscle you can in a conscious manner, you are ( supposedly) doing more work - take the curl for example:
With weights you work the biceps ( primarily) but the triceps get minimal work.
With DT because you are tensing the triceps also, you give them some work as well ( eccentric to the concentric of the curl).
Again the issue is the % of intensity ( and also time under tension).
Studies have shown that max tension can only be held for about 6-8 seconds and after that, you are not using strength but fighting of fatigue ( endurance), so a move the is using max tension will, typically, last about 3-5 seconds ( depending on the person).
I whole dynamic tension set done with max ( or as close to max as we can) should last, at the most ( for strength purposes) about 10-12 min and that is WITH the pauses needed to "release" the tension between exercies.

It should be noted that the Tit sid kune of Hung Kune follows those parameters very well.


Again, if one is using a DT set to build pure strength ( and there are better methods) then one MUST use max tension ( or as close as we can get) in every move being done to develop the strength, outside that what is being developed is muscular endurance ( fighting off fatigue in the muscles).

[Frost]

so the set was totally made up and is in reality a fake, and the guy who made it up used the wrong timing and length for the purpose it was faked for

[sanjuro_ronin]

so the set was totally made up and is in reality a fake, and the guy who made it up used the wrong timing and length for the purpose it was faked for

I have no idea WHY Allen made it so...
But 90 min of ST is quite simply endurance training.

[Frost]

I have no idea WHY Allen made it so...
But 90 min of ST is quite simply endurance training.

oh you know exactly why he made it up .......

[David Jamieson]

Newsflash: ALL EXERCISE IS DEVISED AND "MADE UP">

Does it really matter?

what works? what does not? What works for some but not for others? etc.

These are the worthwhile questions.

so many green bitches in here it's like an episode of Star Trek!

[Frost]

Newsflash: ALL EXERCISE IS DEVISED AND "MADE UP">

Does it really matter?

what works? what does not? What works for some but not for others? etc.

These are the worthwhile questions.

so many green bitches in here it's like an episode of Star Trek!

yes it does matter for several reasons
Firstly its misleadingb its marketed as the grand ultimate secret chinese system created years ago and only passed down to the most worthy of students...when in fact he made it up

secondly If the whole premise is to mislead from day one then that doesnt say much about what the outcome is going to be from studying the thing

Thirdly if its made up then there is no histroy of it working so the chances of it being usefull are nil, esecpially if its different from other systems that do work such as iron wire etc

[lkfmdc]

Newsflash: ALL EXERCISE IS DEVISED AND "MADE UP">

Does it really matter?

As usual, you miss the point....

Unless you subscribe to the stone tablets from G'd world view of course everything is made up by somone somewhere....

Which is precisely why not only is it dishonest but unnecessary to make up elaborate stories (ie bullshit) about stuff you teach to make it sound like some ancient secret some monk made up in good old ancient china

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes it does matter for several reasons
Firstly its misleadingb its marketed as the grand ultimate secret chinese system created years ago and only passed down to the most worthy of students...when in fact he made it up

secondly If the whole premise is to mislead from day one then that doesnt say much about what the outcome is going to be from studying the thing

Thirdly if its made up then there is no histroy of it working so the chances of it being usefull are nil, esecpially if its different from other systems that do work such as iron wire etc

It is a well know fact that every MA was made up.
The IW was made up.
It is perfectly fine to state that a form was made up.
There is no reason to lie about the origins unless you are trying to passed it off as some "ancient chinese secret".

[lkfmdc]

It is a well know fact that every MA was made up.
The IW was made up.
It is perfectly fine to state that a form was made up.
There is no reason to lie about the origins unless you are trying to passed it off as some "ancient chinese secret".

Just to emphasis

"There is no reason to lie about the origins unless you are trying to passed it off as some "ancient chinese secret"

/\ THIS

You might also note that where Tit Sin (wire) is concerned we have a very clear, not very embelished story of how it came about. A monk taught some chi kung type stuff, his student arranged it into a set, it was modified by his student and adopted by WFH.....

You see evolution and change, not some "holy grail" that never was changed, passed down secretly from generation to generation, because that NEVER HAPPENS

[David Jamieson]

yes it does matter for several reasons
Firstly its misleadingb its marketed as the grand ultimate secret chinese system created years ago and only passed down to the most worthy of students...when in fact he made it up

secondly If the whole premise is to mislead from day one then that doesnt say much about what the outcome is going to be from studying the thing

Thirdly if its made up then there is no histroy of it working so the chances of it being usefull are nil, esecpially if its different from other systems that do work such as iron wire etc

But you don't know that. You are band-wagoning with someone else who doesn't actually know either. Do you actually know that what you are accusing some other guy of is authentic and true?

I'm gonna say, no, no you don't and that you are talking out your ass and arguing from ignorance because that is exactly what you are doing. It is what it is. I think aromatherapy is crap, but hey, people love it and buy in to it all day long.

There is not one single teacher on these forums that can guarantee any of their students that they will in fact be able to defend themselves effectively after taking lessons with any of them. there is no one here that can say "this will improve your health" etc etc. It is entirely dependent on whether or not that person does it.

I'm guessing no one here kvetching away has done the material or even really watched it end to end with one or two exceptions. So that's that unless you want to throw stones. IN which case, go ahead, but it's a bloody waste of time.

I practice dynamic tension sets. I've seen other versions, they all touch on the same ideas.

As usual, you miss the point....

Unless you subscribe to the stone tablets from G'd world view of course everything is made up by somone somewhere....

Which is precisely why not only is it dishonest but unnecessary to make up elaborate stories (ie bullshit) about stuff you teach to make it sound like some ancient secret some monk made up in good old ancient china

Oh really? So no tall tales in Traditional martial arts then.

Right, gotcha.

Good luck with that.

If you guys were actually serious about being "the deadly" you'd join a military force instead of sitting around with your hobby arts and grinding on and on about someone else and their hobby art.

I can thin of all kinds of bat crap crazy stuff that goes on in virtually all martial practices, from the paleo fools of crossfit to the secret chi exploders.

None of it is relevant to what you are doing is it? Is it? Who do you think you are protecting and who do you think you are protecting them from?

seriously, you come across as whiners with nothing better to focus on than throwing feces.

[lkfmdc]

Oh really? So no tall tales in Traditional martial arts then.

It's truely remarkable how you can consistently miss the point...

the tall tales aka bullshit are precisely the problem in the traditional arts....

people like Allen learned to be a liar from a long line of liars whom we often called "sifu"....