sword fighting

[mkriii]

Ah, i see.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Here are more questions:
1. Extension of your rear hand in the lunge (hand not holding the sword):
Western fencing - the rear hand is for balance
Chinese fencing - balance, help the flow of chi through the body and may be a hidden hand technique(?)

Am I correct on those points?

What other hidden hand technique can you use from that rear hand position?

2. When fighting more than two opponents using a lunge or other techniques that require you to extend your rear hand out. How do you prevent some one from chopping your over extended rear hand off?

Or

The ancient western/Chinese swordmen did not use a lunge in a real fight against more than one person.

Thank you
Hitman

[SimonM]

Chinese martial arts are a great deal less mystical than people think. The extension of the hand behind during a lunge was for balance and to keep the **** thing out of the way.

Airy-fairy Qi manipulation stuff comes from mistranslation, misinterpretation, consultation of archaic manuals written during a different paradigm of understanding of human physiology and adherence to instruction via the oral tradition extending back into the time of this different paradigm.

The interesting thing is that much of Chinese medicine and martial arts is that much of it was actually developed through observation and experimentation. This information was then applied to a (relatively good) pre-scientific paradigm and then communicated orally and through manuals that were frequently quite anachronystic in presentation.

So when the information crosses paradigms and languages (and the language gap between Chinese and English is huge) it gets overly-mystified, even compared to the original pre-scientific paradigm within which it was codified.

The responsibility of good martial artists, within traditional martial arts, who are interested in the survival of their art includes separating the true teachings of the art from the noise introduced by translation, interpretation and change of paradigm.

With reference to your second enquiry most melee weapon pedagogies were assuming one of two conditions: 1) dueling 2) military. In both cases response to a small group of attackers facing a single defender was a not-often-considered situation.

To be frank if you are in a sword fight and an armed opponent flanks you than losing your hand is the least of your worries. Taking a blade to the kidney would concern me rather more.

[Lucas]

It also helps to create more force.

[Eddie]

I was in china recently at Wuhan Institute of Physical Education. They are busy developing a new sword fighting sport that includes Chinese sword styles. They use these long foam (with a hard but flexible core) covered swords. They even had a book out on it, and from what I gathered, they have been playing around with the idea for a long while. Also, from what I gathered, this will be kind of like China’s answer to Kendo and fencing. What I saw looked very promising, and I think it could be a great sport. Perhaps this will be included as a Wushu combat event in the future.

[SimonM]

Neat.

Too bad about the foam though...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was in china recently at Wuhan Institute of Physical Education. They are busy developing a new sword fighting sport that includes Chinese sword styles. They use these long foam (with a hard but flexible core) covered swords. They even had a book out on it, and from what I gathered, they have been playing around with the idea for a long while. Also, from what I gathered, this will be kind of like China’s answer to Kendo and fencing. What I saw looked very promising, and I think it could be a great sport. Perhaps this will be included as a Wushu combat event in the future.

Most padded escrima sticks are the same thing, they are great, though the cheaper one tend to break in a full contact environment that isn't somewhat controlled.
Sometimes I prefer padded work to the real thing, I don't use gloves of head/face gear with padded sticks (only safety goggles) and if you are honest and experienced you get as realistic training as full contact stick work with protective gear.

[SimonM]

I should probably wear more protective gear than I do. I tend to dislike it though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I should probably wear more protective gear than I do. I tend to dislike it though.

My injuries of youth tend to dictate what I wear, namely protective knee gear since I shattered and teared my patela years ago.
Bruise and dislocation are ok in not vital joints.
I wear the smallest gloves I can and depending on who I am fighting, I may wear a forearm guard ( I come from the Yagyu shinkage background and those that know what that means understand the need for forearm/wrist protection with sticks).

[SimonM]

He who has taken a boken shot off of every bone between the finger and the elbow knows what you mean... I still don't bother with protective gear though. Just don't learn I guess.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He who has taken a boken shot off of every bone between the finger and the elbow knows what you mean... I still don't bother with protective gear though. Just don't learn I guess.

Just remember what those boken shots mean, Mr.No hands.

[SimonM]

LOL

That's why we practice with WOOD swords.

There were fewer indicators I had to work on defense better than the shot that hit me square on the funny bone and left my left arm in excrusciating pain for 24 hours. I didn't get it chopped off at the elbow... because hardwood sword... but I was aware - get cut here and you be fvcked.

[Eddie]

you guys are hard core.
before i got these padded swords, i used to play sword fighting with my 7 year old boy. We used whatever short sticks we had.
its really crap to get hit on the hands... and that by an unskilled 7 year old. imagine being hit by a skilled escrima player.

rather you guys than me. Ill stick to san shou

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL

That's why we practice with WOOD swords.

Funny thing, I once did a "bokken VS stick" fight with a friend of a friend and at one point I hit his arm with the bokken as he is coming in and he continues and gets a head shot after the fact,
On another pass I undercut him from his "caveman" type shot and he gets another shot after the fact.
Afterwards we were discussing the match and he said that, while the arm shots hurt, they real don't stop a determined attack and that I shouldn't focus on them that much ( he said the same about a thrust I did to his chest).
I relied that a Bokken is symbolic of a sword.
His counter was that it isn't a sword.

Of course I replied in my typical way, "wanna try it with a real sword"?

I lose more sparring partners that way.

[SimonM]

you guys are hard core.
before i got these padded swords, i used to play sword fighting with my 7 year old boy. We used whatever short sticks we had.
its really crap to get hit on the hands... and that by an unskilled 7 year old. imagine being hit by a skilled escrima player.

rather you guys than me. Ill stick to san shou

I broke a finger once taking a shot in the knuckles with a boken. That was the worst injury. The funnybone probably is #2. I was lucky the time I was using a hardwood jian and my sparring partner sheered off half the crosspiece with a boken strike that the crosspiece deflected enough of the force that he didn't crush my fingers.

SR: ROTFL about that.

I've had the same discussion with my brother - who prefers staffs. His general technique when sparring with me when I use a boken is to grab the blade part of the "sword" and when I challenge that grabbing a sword like that is a good way to lose fingers he always challenges that on the basis that a wood sword isn't a sword.