Bong Sau

[Sihing73]

The Kwan uses two arms to block a kick or punch. Why not the bong wu against a very strong round punch. If a small women is trying to stop a round punch from a stronger man she will need two arms to absorb the force.

Hi Phil,

Go wash your mouth out with soap, "block" is a dirty word To me when you say "block" it invokes images of meeting force with force and that is something I try to avoid.

I can see several reasons for backing up the Bong with your Wu. However, to me, the Bong is a transitory move and should not be used to "force" anything. Of course, that is just me as I have always been weak and lazy so I try to do as little as I can with as little as I have.

Oh, fwiw, I have used something similar to a Kwan Sau in practicing knife reversals and in that situation two hands are definitely better than one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hope this clears some stuff up:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7tPQbARkl...eature=related

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

Go wash your mouth out with soap, "block" is a dirty word To me when you say "block" it invokes images of meeting force with force and that is something I try to avoid.

I can see several reasons for backing up the Bong with your Wu. However, to me, the Bong is a transitory move and should not be used to "force" anything. Of course, that is just me as I have always been weak and lazy so I try to do as little as I can with as little as I have.

Oh, fwiw, I have used something similar to a Kwan Sau in practicing knife reversals and in that situation two hands are definitely better than one.

Ok, stop, intercept, parry, deflect, redirect, etc. Is that ok??

[k gledhill]

Kwan just makes me smile, sorry

[Phil Redmond]

Kwan just makes me smile, sorry

When I was kickboxing I stopped many hard round kicks to my head with a kwan. So I take is seriously. It's one of the techiques taught to Duncan Leung by Yip Man and it works.

[Mr Punch]

TWC tends to use bon higher than many other YM styles. IMO it is not so much the height of the punch but the vertical angle it's coming from that determines its likelihood of riding up over the elbow after contact.
IMO there are certain angles of incoming that may be difficult for a bil, and less so a tan, but for which the bon is ideally suited.

I go with Couch and use bong for lower line attacks, but the reason isn't because of the danger of a strike 'sliding up over the bong' so much, so this assessment of the vertical angle thing doesn't work for me.

The problems are more:

1) If it is high enough to be effective for higher shots there is a very real chance of it actually knocking the incoming higher and into your own face. Of course with the correct timing this shouldn't happen but even then it means leaving your arm up a long time and therefore exposing your ribs/even chest.

2) High-low combos: If you get into set patterns of bong-something it puts you into a reactive mode - and you're not going to be able to respond quickly enough to a high-low punch combo.

3) A lot of punches change line very quickly and effectively on the way in: a good example being a body hook, changing to a head hook, or any height of hook changing into an overhand over the top of your guard. This will negate any of the nice sensitive bong contact reaction you've developed as there's no contact, and again relegate you to a defensive, reactive mode.

I want my bong low and aggressive: more like as k gledhill says as a strong deflection, or coming underneath to uproot. Or in close range: to drive in over their arms to set up elbows or incidental pins (like lans) if we get tangled up.

I do use a low fast, almost non-contact 'disappearing bong' from Sam Kwok's line, and have had some success with it in FC sparring against different styles. In that the idea is to get out of the way (they're thinking they're going to meet resistance), with the bong just covering and gaining top position on their arm: it get's the opponent to overcommit if you can get it right.

Just a few thoughts - of course, I appreciate that I can't use a bong high in the way TWC does because we don't practise it that way: and you TWCers may well be fine with it!

[Mr Punch]

They stand that far apart so that they can put a lot of umph into their work without damaging one another. There is no reason to hit one another in the face while training.

That's one opinion. I hate training outside of striking range. It completely messes up your timing and reflexes even in a slow co-operative drill.

[Mr Punch]

[ there is no 'lop' in slt ]

I'm with couch on this too: I learned my first lop (I have three distinct lops) as part of the chambering move, and then revisited it as a very short power lop when I learned biu jee.

Do you not doa lop at all until you're learning chum kiu?

[Wilson]

The problems are more:

1) If it is high enough to be effective for higher shots there is a very real chance of it actually knocking the incoming higher and into your own face. Of course with the correct timing this shouldn't happen but even then it means leaving your arm up a long time and therefore exposing your ribs/even chest.

In TWC, we step and turn so that our wrist is still at our center, but our center is now facing the side of the punching arm. This allows the punch to travel where our head WAS but we are in the clear on the opponents blind side...and our bong can be used to deflect/redirect or sense the next move, while the wu hand can now lop, trap, etc. to set up for the strike from the blind side.

I would not stand still and raise a bong sau to a punch coming straight at my face as a "block".

[k gledhill]

my thinking ...attack as defense , non thinking .

jut sao ! it is the primary attack clearing action, due to its action of holding the line. we do a lot in the dummy facing to develop its shock force .

lop is not done 1st for a reason. When we do lop sao its to turn the opponent on his vertical axis line , turning them and opening their flanks like a 'farm gate' ...attack gone bad because our forward ATTACK was stopped ...so in a blink [lot of blinking going on] the guy is grabbed turned and attacked AGAIN ...back to the 'primary' attacking idea. Attack as the defense.

We do turning 'jut-sao' in chum kil, a lot of jut sao's ...many use lop like its a given thing for ALL .if in doubt LOP IT OUT...NOT ! jut sao even if you miss is still on your centerline firing away , both arms are jutting as they attack by nature of the flanking angles. If I intersect your arm like 2 roads crossing each other and want to strike forwards , why detour ?...the jut moves on centerline as we shift to face in CK , it doesnt leave the line to chase , nor does tan, jum etc... for a reason of developing a non thinking attack line , seamless in its attack actions .


In CK jut sao is done on top of the tan 3 times for a reason...when we do 3 times its significant. tan sao is a striking position we use it as a platform to develop the 'shock'
effect on our own arms , not as an arm break , although you can do anything
A tan/strike interrupted becomes ....? jut repeat 2-3...not lop 3-4

In Bil Bee the arms lead the head , we chase using wrists and lop takes your arm off line , a chasing action ,

Mistakes are further compounded by doing bong lop routines , instead of bong jut routines at a basic level , it develops 2 different animals.

a simple way to 'prove ' & 'eradicate' the 'chase hand' ....If you quickly remove the man sao [ punch/fook] on the bong like a jabbing action , while doing man sao bong sao drills , you will see the students trying to grab sideways as they try to grab the now empty space and thereby chase arms and add a redundant beat to the attack ... your trying to help each other by doing this on purpose not get ****ed off the guy made you look silly...get better not revenge .

it instills the block n grab rather than deflect left to right with bong and then strike attack again ...only do a jut if required. or LOP if the bong didnt deflect because it didnt work right ...then we go to fix bong ...bil gee recovers bad bongs, high bongs , grabbed wrists of bong ...

bong ->f<- bong

YM holds his vu sao by the bongs bicep so the following striking action clears his center line by simply moving forwards as he drops the bong elbow, attacking strike, contact made ? jut or lop it should be instinctive not a pre-programed response to always lop...

One of the ways to coach out mistakes is to simply and quickly remove the lead hand [ man sao] the student is 'looking ' for on his bong, its like I trained guy's in shooting drills by putting a blank in a gun [revolver roulette] to see if the student is anticipating the bang /recoil and taking the barrel off the firing line to the bulls eye when the gun just goes 'click' .... its a common mistake we all make , and one the system focuses on to remove by training... if everyone does it , so will the guy who doesn't know the system good for you, bad for them

You show them the faster method [ harder] and create an attacking action following the bong sideways clearing move ..laterally on your line of attack...tut sao idea drop bong elbow / slide strike in to the space created , seamless , no thinking needed while still attacking , arms on the line firing and clearing , not chasing.
The tan sao by design clears the line using its outside edge of the forearm , the elbow leaves the line during the strike extension [ tan elbow spreads OFF the line ..not the tan hand..and back again ] chi-sao is this tan strike back to tan ..elbow muscle memory for good pre-strike positions aka tan /jum . So as the bong lowers the vu becomes a tan strike [ commonly seen as a kwan ] and seamlessly strikes along our line as the bong elbow drops down to resume attacking again with a following jum strike using the INSIDE of the forearm to follow the OUTSIDE tan strike from the flanked arm displaced by the BONG SAO ...cool stuff I love this system...

It develops the non thinking attack line .....a lop will open your line up chasing laterally as you attack the guy...if you miss or they just keep punching across your upraised bong
you haven't reclaimed the Vu sao position [queen on the board] quick enough to simply fire again at the incoming strikes ...because the vu recovers to its own base rear line in a pre-flanking strike position ...the idea fails...if it does get back its THERE simply keep striking or it meets something on the way..either way your ATTACKING AS YOUR DEFENSE [ can you hear my writing ] not looking for lop sao .

Jut goes back and forth on the line as SLT , intersecting the centerline the same way the shaving hands teaches to transfer one striking deflection action to another without opening up the attack line to the opponent ...it means we are seamlessly delivering a constant barrage only stopped by them and arms in the way or turning away from us or not fighting.

Doing lop first is like adding a wrong piece in a unbroken idea....the SLT feeds techniques to itself to further the idea..

we need lop, but not at the basic level of development or you ingrain an idea that breaks the first attack line idea. Bil gee isnt SLT its to recover the idea of SLT ...recovery.

you can do it in SLT, hel l you can anything [ and many do ] , but do you know the difference between jut and lop ? and why and when ?

[k gledhill]

When I was kickboxing I stopped many hard round kicks to my head with a kwan. So I take is seriously. It's one of the techiques taught to Duncan Leung by Yip Man and it works.

im talking about chi-sao world I use it too to create a defensive line but its usually seen as a 'move' . Again its a chasing thing the dummy 'kwan' to us is not turning a guy like the main dummy body is the attacker ...we are attacking in a cycle of previous arm actions that cycle into and out of 'kwan' ...example , the high jumming strike with a low gaun sao ..many see as a double defensive move ...we attack high jumming strike, defend low gate gaun sao....we rotate low gaun sao to a tan strike position [elbow in outside forearm deflection strike in] while high jumming strike [inside forearm deflection strike] rotates to a bong sao deflection to clear for the tan ...done in a sequence that trains one arm to become a defensive partner to the next strike ...and rotate forever 2-3-4...the SLT last sections are these cycles of attack and defense in a partnership required because the simple strike was interrupted.

not a set response do 'Kwan sao for this' attack...we are attacking using a basic strike ability. Then use a bong like most to clear the way...our thinking of bong is simply that if you x my strike line from above , high , low, mid section its still the same ...


In the dummy training there are more dummy's invisible on either side of the main body...when we do Kwan sao it isn't as a move but the arms cycling through SLT using CK movement and facing the imaginary opponent off to the side your tan strike is pointing and bong is deflecting to open for the next strike ...we are 'shutting down' the opponents flank in the direction we move across the dummy face each arm can become the other jum/tan/ f \tan\jum [ f = flanked side] as the guy shifts before us ...ergo we go back across th dummy to attack them as thy change directions so we do it seamlessly, like they have a wall behind them and have to move sideways to us we are constantly positioning ourselves to their flanks pointing with ck facing [chu ying] so slt idea works ......different thinking. perpetual attacking as defense.

The dummy gives us a chance to cycle the ideas over and over in an attack defensive relationship.
working the idea of the line and out x'ing it to seamlessly sweep the zone we attack on. lin sil di da .
the height of the dummy arms critical to instill the right elbow /alignment and ging shock force ...got to love it !

Even when we turn back to reface the dummy and enter on the sides it is also seen as you have kept closing down the opponent from the original line of attack ..iow its not face and suddenly enter by angling in using a sidestep etc... but a converging attacking line like a child will play tag and go for your legs as you move away, they come after you, and with you , not doing a perimeter defense like a basketball player guarding a guy trying to get past him by keeping space constant .

So while going across the face of the dummy atacking and converging on them you keep going as if entering the side of the dummy only using tan or jum not both like tan sideplam attack , that is simply for alignment of one or the other in the attack line tan or jum but we dont know which ...? yet ; )

[bennyvt]

I also learnt the kwan sao in the dummy as a defence for kicks. The idea is that your opponent is too big or quick to step and garn sao like you should so you kwan sao the kick and the angle of the arms. body and kick mean that the force goes into their knee or the area that you are striking.
Wu Sao. The idea is to pull your fingers back but to have the forward pressure in the elbow. This means that the Wu sao will not be thrown forward when the pressure is gane (as it would if your fingers are not pushed back). The Wu sao is the last resort, I like to call the bong sao the "jesus" block as you are to late or see it late and go "JESUS!" and throw the bong sao. With the elbow thrown forward towards the block. The Wu sao has to have forward force as by the time it hits the block if you have to push forward it will have already hit you. This is the main idea behind Chi sao as opposed to just if he does this you do that, but if your force is always pushing towards your opponents centre your hands will fly forward before your brain has time to think, so on the way forward your brain decides what to do.
Lap sao (this would only be done if bong has not worked as you would just hit). Lap sao should never be a sideways motion to start. The Wu sao should be pushed forward using the elbow. The Wu sao should hit the opponents hand, depending what happens changes your move. If the hand is pushed aside you continue into a punch. If the hand is still in the centre then you turn the Wu sao into a lap sao using the outside of your hand to divert the opponents hand will turning it into the lap sao. If the hand can be moved you move it enough to be able to turn it into a punch, move the hand and hit with the other or if the opponent is really buig you can step and lap sao and if you structure is correct you will be moved into the position you would have liked (the same position as if you moved him but you move instead).
Yes the jut sao is a good technique but like everything if it worked all the time you wouldnt learn anything else. As if you can jut sao on the centre you could have turned it into a punch in the first place.

[k gledhill]

Benny vt i dont do vt like you, i like the "Jesus !" funny you should be attacking the other guys vusao make him say "Jesus and Mary !"

[Phil Redmond]

Wu guarding the face with forward energy. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong. I'm just saying this is what has worked for me in the ring and in the street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63riYdFn_bI

[anerlich]

With all this argument about the "right" way to practice bon and how clueless everyone else is, I sparred last night. My bon seemed to pop up Ok without thinking, and I didn't have the wu there unless I needed it. I didn't get my bon/wu trapped didn't get pooed by attacks on a low line after the high bon, have a shot ride up over my elbow or anything else.

Drilling your stuff is far more important than arguing about it.