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Thread: William Cheung's TWC

  1. #1

    William Cheung's TWC

    Here's a link to an article I wrote about William Cheung's TWC (Traditional Wing chun) system.

    The article is very detailed and will provide many answers to those who might be interested in knowing exactly what the differences are between TWC and other wing chun systems.

    The path to the link is as follows:

    1) www.wingchunpedia.com
    2) click on the right where it says: "WingChunPedia.org"
    3) click on the left where it says: "Lineages"
    4) click on the bottom where it says: "William Cheung TWC lineage"
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 06-22-2008 at 08:12 AM.

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    Your article was very good. I have to say that everything you wrote sort of matched up with what I was taught. I would not know traditional from whatever as I am not familiar with this lineage thing so much. Bill Cheung has good gung fu and there are no 2 ways about it. I want to say that traditional wingchun looks and acts pretty much to me like Hung Fa Yi. I do not know why all the secrecy on the part of Hung Fa. I learned my version from a man that was from around the Canton area and he brought it to the USA in 1950. He would not teach anyone that was not Chinese and made me agree not to as well. I never heard him speak of lineage or any of his past teachers. I guess I am sort of a ******* as I can tell you nothing about my own lineage. I call it Chiang Lee Wing Chun. Lineage aside, from what I have been able to determine so far is that the principals of Hung Fa are the same in most all the lineages I have been able to examine. With the main differences being on emphisis. The way these basics are employed I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Here's a link to an article I wrote about William Cheung's TWC (Traditional Wing chun) system.

    The article is very detailed and will provide many answers to those who might be interested in knowing exactly what the differences are between TWC and other wing chun systems.

    The path to the link is as follows:

    1) www.wingchunpedia.com
    2) click on the right where it says: "WingChunPedia.org"
    3) click on the left where it says: "Lineages"
    4) click on the bottom where it says: "William Cheung TWC lineage"
    Nice article Victor, well written and clear.
    Pics would have been nice...slacker !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    Your article was very good. I have to say that everything you wrote sort of matched up with what I was taught.
    <snip>
    Lineage aside, from what I have been able to determine so far is that the principals of Hung Fa are the same in most all the lineages I have been able to examine. With the main differences being on emphisis. The way these basics are employed I guess.
    Hello,
    Interesting points. You mention sort of matching up and different emphasis, maybe you could open up a new thread to discuss what you learned and how it compares with what you have read and seen of TWC?

    Matt
    People often choose the comfort of known misery
    to the discomfort of unfamiliar uncertainty -Unknown

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
    The article is very detailed and will provide many answers to those who might be interested in knowing exactly what the differences arebetween TWC and other wing chun systems.
    Originally posted by Lee Chiang Po
    Your article was very good. I have to say that everything you wrote sort of matched up with what I was taught. I would not know traditional from whatever as I am not familiar with this lineage thing so much.
    Lee Chiang Po, All wing chun will sound similar the differences that Victor describes would no doubt be most noticeable in the details. Experience is always the best indicator and teacher of this fact.
    Last edited by Sihing73; 06-25-2008 at 07:42 AM.
    Tony Jacobs

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    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

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    Nice article Vic.

    As you have said in the past you are NOT certain if you have HFY and HFY might look a little different from what you do. I attached your old post from this forum earlier this year to refresh your memory, see below. For some funny reason I could not find that particular post here on this wing chun forum but it was captured on one of the hfy108 threads where I cut and pasted here. I know alot of people here remember your posting. If you find it please paste the url, thanks.
    What is this, the Spanish Inquisition?

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    Basically, the way I see it Victor wrote a decent article about his system. Then LCP came on talking about similarities to 'Hung Fa', and then HFY, etc. But then says he really doesn't know much about TWC, if anything, so what is he really talking about? From what experience does he draw this conclusion from? IMO, it isn't too much to ask from any 'side' what he actually knows about either (or any) of the systems that he draws his comparisons from. Or is he just talking out the side of his head

    This isn't an inquisition, or 'bait', or anything else, just some simple questions that aren't that over the top. Funny how someone wants to make so much out of just a couple obvious questions. Not the BFD some might read into a few questions.
    I'd be curious what he actually has to say he sees and where he draws his experience from...
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 06-24-2008 at 06:54 PM.

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    Funny how someone wants to make so much out of just a couple obvious questions.
    Of course that never happens when someone asks obvious questions about HFY.

    Nothing wrong with questions.

    It's more the zeal and hypervigilance displayed by such statements as

    I attached your old post from this forum earlier this year
    For some funny reason I could not find that particular post here on this wing chun forum
    it was captured on one of the hfy108 threads where I cut and pasted here
    I know alot of people here remember your posting
    that makes me wonder if someone takes this particular BFD a little too seriously and needs to take a break.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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    I am sorry I have not been back. Sometimes this forum sees me coming and won't let me in.

    Now, what I have been trying to do is keep from making statements of fact. I don't have the facts. Too much myth to really know. What I have said is that what it was called by my dad was Hung Fa. He also called it Hung fa wing chun. He never really called it Hung Fa Yi. I have heard it called by other names as well. I know that he was born in 1880. Some time after 1890 he started learning what he called Hung Fa wing chun. He learned it from ex military men. Soldiers of the Imperial Army. Later in his life he learned from other men when he joined with a secret society. A tong gang is you will. He did not come to the states until 1950. He was an old man. He never did tell me anything concerning lineage or so forth. So I have no idea. Now, I know that what he was teaching me was at least that old. I am guessing that it goes way back more than that. When we see family trees with the last person being enhereter I have to wonder. I was not told this in so many words, but it was indicated that there were hundreds if not thousands of people running around China that were Wing chun boxers.
    When I said that it looks the same to me it is because it looks the same to me. Wing chun is built on concepts and basic principals. You can watch 5 people that are trained by different sifu and you will see differences in their style. However, in most all cases you are going to see that they do adhere to these principals even if it looks a bit different. When you abandon these principals you are not doing wing chun in my opinion. Also, if you are the last living person of a single lineage then you can enheret. But you can not enheret the entire system as such.
    I have watched Bill Cheung do wing chun and must say that I do my wing chun pretty much like he does. I am sure by Victors written article that I felt familiar with every concept of what he wrote. If my wing chun was different I would have immediately noticed differences. As for the HFY of Garret Gee, I have no idea as I have never seen him do much except on a few short video clips. It looked exactly like what Bill Cheung does.
    I do not believe the story of Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun. It would make the lineage far too narrow to have had hundreds if not thousands of followers in China. Look at the number of lineages today. It could not account for only a half dozen generations.
    I don't think I have ever made a posting on the 101 forum spoken of earlier. I am not a member and would not be able to. I have only been there a couple of times and gave up trying to navigate that forum. That was something posted on this forum.

    Chiang

  10. #10
    Excellent post, Chiang. It's hard to imagine after reading it that you're not being sincere. And please don't feel as though you have to answer all the attempts at cross-examination by any self-appointed special prosecutors. You don't have to justify yourself, if - like so many other people - you have noticed that TWC and HFY seem to be so very similar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I am sorry I have not been back. Sometimes this forum sees me coming and won't let me in.

    Now, what I have been trying to do is keep from making statements of fact. I don't have the facts. Too much myth to really know. What I have said is that what it was called by my dad was Hung Fa. He also called it Hung fa wing chun. He never really called it Hung Fa Yi. I have heard it called by other names as well. I know that he was born in 1880. Some time after 1890 he started learning what he called Hung Fa wing chun. He learned it from ex military men. Soldiers of the Imperial Army. Later in his life he learned from other men when he joined with a secret society. A tong gang is you will. He did not come to the states until 1950. He was an old man. He never did tell me anything concerning lineage or so forth. So I have no idea. Now, I know that what he was teaching me was at least that old. I am guessing that it goes way back more than that. When we see family trees with the last person being enhereter I have to wonder. I was not told this in so many words, but it was indicated that there were hundreds if not thousands of people running around China that were Wing chun boxers.
    When I said that it looks the same to me it is because it looks the same to me. Wing chun is built on concepts and basic principals. You can watch 5 people that are trained by different sifu and you will see differences in their style. However, in most all cases you are going to see that they do adhere to these principals even if it looks a bit different. When you abandon these principals you are not doing wing chun in my opinion. Also, if you are the last living person of a single lineage then you can enheret. But you can not enheret the entire system as such.
    I have watched Bill Cheung do wing chun and must say that I do my wing chun pretty much like he does. I am sure by Victors written article that I felt familiar with every concept of what he wrote. If my wing chun was different I would have immediately noticed differences. As for the HFY of Garret Gee, I have no idea as I have never seen him do much except on a few short video clips. It looked exactly like what Bill Cheung does.
    I do not believe the story of Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun. It would make the lineage far too narrow to have had hundreds if not thousands of followers in China. Look at the number of lineages today. It could not account for only a half dozen generations.
    I don't think I have ever made a posting on the 101 forum spoken of earlier. I am not a member and would not be able to. I have only been there a couple of times and gave up trying to navigate that forum. That was something posted on this forum.

    Chiang

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    Questions regarding watching the elbows and knees

    Dear Sifu Victor,

    Your article is very interesting and make me think. Thank you very much.
    I would be very grateful if you or anyone can answer the following questions for me regarding to:

    "I) WATCHING ELBOWS AND KNEES
    It’s a scientifically proven fact that when a straight line punch or kick is thrown that the elbow (in the case of a punch) or the knee (in the case of a kick) is actually moving about 2x slower than the fist or the foot respectively - since the elbow or the knee are moving about half the distance of the fist or the foot IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. So they have to be moving slower - and are therefore much easier to see and react to. Watching a fist when a fast punch is thrown can actually be little more than a blur - and the same is true of the foot when a fast kick is thrown. And when a round punch or kick is thrown - the elbow and the knee are actually moving about 4x slower than the fist or foot, for the same reasons just given. "

    1) Watching the elbows and knees might work for long distance fighting against a stationary opponent. However, what happen if your opponent keep on bouncing around or jumping up and down as shown in some of the tae kwon do tournaments in UK?
    Several months ago I saw the BBC News interviewing and showing some of the British tae kwon do Olympic team's fighting techniques. They were bouncing for several seconds before they even throw a kick. My question is how can you tell when your opponent is actually attacking you, when he/she keep on moving their knees and elbows up and down (bouncing)?

    2) My sparring partner and I start sparring at a distance of less than 2 feet. Therefore, I have to watch the shoulder movement for any sign of attack. Even this is no guarantee that I will not get hit. We kicked our shins several times today.
    In order to watch the elbows and knees I would have to bend my neck. Therefore, I may damage my neck in the process.
    Which part of the human body do you watch during close up fighting when there is no hand contact at the beginning?

    This is not a criticism. This is about me trying to understand TWC's approach towards fighting.

    Thank you very much
    Hitman

  12. #12
    "My question is how can you tell when your opponent is actually attacking you, when he/she keep on moving their knees and elbows up and down (bouncing)?" (Hitman)


    ***By watching...the VERTICAL line that corresponds to his LEAD side - and when a kick or punch does come you will immediately pick out the elbow or knee corresponding to the fist or foot that's coming at you...in time to defend/counter/avoid.

    BUT YOU SHOULD BE ATTACKING RATHER THAN WAITING.

    Btw....why pay direct attention to his lead side?

    Because attacks coming from the rear hand or foot will take longer to get to you - so more direct respect (ie.- direct vision) must be paid to his lead side weapons - and his rear side weaponry gets the attention of your peripheral vision.

    ...............................

    From less than two feet: attack.

    And if one possible result is that you've contacted (bridged) with one of his arms - then watch the elbow of his other arm (since chi sao-like contact reflexes will take care of the arm you're contacting).

    Assuming your contact reflexes are good and your chi sao, kiu sao, bong sao, pak sao, etc. training has been good.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 06-25-2008 at 02:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Dear Sifu Victor,

    Your article is very interesting and make me think. Thank you very much.
    I would be very grateful if you or anyone can answer the following questions for me regarding to:

    "I) WATCHING ELBOWS AND KNEES
    It’s a scientifically proven fact that when a straight line punch or kick is thrown that the elbow (in the case of a punch) or the knee (in the case of a kick) is actually moving about 2x slower than the fist or the foot respectively - since the elbow or the knee are moving about half the distance of the fist or the foot IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. So they have to be moving slower - and are therefore much easier to see and react to. Watching a fist when a fast punch is thrown can actually be little more than a blur - and the same is true of the foot when a fast kick is thrown. And when a round punch or kick is thrown - the elbow and the knee are actually moving about 4x slower than the fist or foot, for the same reasons just given. "

    1) Watching the elbows and knees might work for long distance fighting against a stationary opponent. However, what happen if your opponent keep on bouncing around or jumping up and down as shown in some of the tae kwon do tournaments in UK?
    Several months ago I saw the BBC News interviewing and showing some of the British tae kwon do Olympic team's fighting techniques. They were bouncing for several seconds before they even throw a kick. My question is how can you tell when your opponent is actually attacking you, when he/she keep on moving their knees and elbows up and down (bouncing)?

    2) My sparring partner and I start sparring at a distance of less than 2 feet. Therefore, I have to watch the shoulder movement for any sign of attack. Even this is no guarantee that I will not get hit. We kicked our shins several times today.
    In order to watch the elbows and knees I would have to bend my neck. Therefore, I may damage my neck in the process.
    Which part of the human body do you watch during close up fighting when there is no hand contact at the beginning?

    This is not a criticism. This is about me trying to understand TWC's approach towards fighting.

    Thank you very much
    Hitman
    We do eye exercises to train the 6 muscles in each eye. We also train by having someone throw straight and round punches at us while looking at the elbow in order to develop peripheral view of the elbow. There is no need to lower you head while using peripheral vision. Once you've trained sufficiently watching the elbow it doesn't matter if the person is jumping up and down. Our guys can see the elbow while fighting in full contact event where the opponent is obviouly moving. During the Lei Tai fights last year the guys got to test watching the elbow. http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp
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    Orignally posted by Lee Chiang Po
    When I said that it looks the same to me it is because it looks the same to me. Wing chun is built on concepts and basic principals. You can watch 5 people that are trained by different sifu and you will see differences in their style. However, in most all cases you are going to see that they do adhere to these principals even if it looks a bit different. When you abandon these principals you are not doing wing chun in my opinion.
    Chiang,
    Your statements seem to be in conflict with one another though you are not the only one to make such statements. When someone attempts to compare wing chun to wing chun it is only natural that they will see wing chun because of the adherent concepts and principles permeating all wing chun. The contradiction is to say that TWC and Hung Fa Yi look similar because again with that statement they are stating the obvious yet have no experience with either means the actual comparison is hollow and without merit. Saying that wing chun looks like wing chun which most everyone can agree with but it also ignores the not so visible or meticulous details known only to the practitioner of each branch which are the most important factors separating the different branches of wing chun.

    So to say that TWC looks similar to Hung Fa Yi or any other branch of wing chun is to ignore or slight the very particular and distinct whether subtle or obvious details which distinguishes each different branch of wing chun from one another as if to say TWC or Hung Fa Yi don't at points of training and execution Look like Yuen Kay San Wing Chun or IWTA or any other branch of wing chun which just isn't true or they would not all be wing chun.

    So comparisons of different branches of wing chun by sight alone and without hands on experience is not very reliable or revealing much other than the fact that what is visible are the principles and concepts of wing chun. The hands on comparison of varying wing chun branches is a must in order to consider the validity of any comparisons because that is what is required to illuminate the exact differences as to why each branch of wing chun is distinguishably different. This is something that just cannot be done with the visual experience alone. So it only makes sense to say wing chun should look like wing chun but it does not make sense to try to establish to a percentage or a discernible degree of difference which branches of wing chun are more alike or more different by sight alone from any other branch when all anyone should be seeing is something that is either wing chun or not wing chun and focus on and consider the details once the practice or execution has begun.
    Last edited by canglong; 06-26-2008 at 11:13 PM.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

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    The extrapolation of that argument would have distinctions made between WC and kickboxing invalid because they are both types of pugilism

    to paraphrase:

    So comparisons of different branches of pugilism by sight alone and without hands on experience is not very reliable or revealing much other than the fact that what is visible are the principles and concepts of pugilism.

    Sorry, but it is always possible to remark on the distinctions - and similarities - between your way of doing something and someone else's way of doing it. and to evaluate whether, say, TWC and HFY are more similar than say, TWC and YKS. part of the getting of wisdom is the ability to percieve fine distinctions.

    You probably need to see what LCP does before you can say whether or not it has differences from what you do. And by your own argument, you are in no position to say whether what he calls Hung Fa has any similarity or difference to TWC as you have no experience in the latter.

    LCP has said his stuff looks like TWC and he makes no judgement on HFY as he has not seen it. IHe never said his stuff was like yours, so you don't need to treat him as some sort of black sheep.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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