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Thread: William Cheung's TWC

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Have you guys found that mobility on the balls of the feet is more of a concern for longer ranges and K1 distribution is more a concern in WC range? Curious.
    I don't know if this will be the feedback you're looking for...

    I shift on K1. But when I'm moving around...I have to use the balls of my feet...so what gives?

    K1 is my 'learned' balance point. It's where I'm putting my weight for a time. Honestly, after K1 shifting is learned and ingrained, I think there is a natural progression towards using the ball of the foot a little more. For me, there are two things involved: weight placement over the foot and the ability to move. If it's in the middle, I can move on the balls of heels of the foot. Maybe KPM can weigh in on this one. Also, K1 shifting, IMO, teaches proper attachment or "linking" of the hips. There seems to be a tension between front stance and side stances...like because of this tension, there is a tendency to be pulled and locked in to a stance. That's at least how if feels to me.

    Best,
    K
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    I don't know if this will be the feedback you're looking for...

    I shift on K1. But when I'm moving around...I have to use the balls of my feet...so what gives?

    K1 is my 'learned' balance point. It's where I'm putting my weight for a time. Honestly, after K1 shifting is learned and ingrained, I think there is a natural progression towards using the ball of the foot a little more. For me, there are two things involved: weight placement over the foot and the ability to move. If it's in the middle, I can move on the balls of heels of the foot. Maybe KPM can weigh in on this one. Also, K1 shifting, IMO, teaches proper attachment or "linking" of the hips. There seems to be a tension between front stance and side stances...like because of this tension, there is a tendency to be pulled and locked in to a stance. That's at least how if feels to me.

    Best,
    K
    You know, some people have amazing foot work and force production and they don't even know what and where Kidney 1 is....
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  3. #93
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    As a further observation, more for those interested in MMA nd the "glorified kickboxers", it's very hard to sprawl effectively if you are back on your heels or even flat footed.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    I don't know if this will be the feedback you're looking for...

    I shift on K1. But when I'm moving around...I have to use the balls of my feet...so what gives?

    K1 is my 'learned' balance point. It's where I'm putting my weight for a time. Honestly, after K1 shifting is learned and ingrained, I think there is a natural progression towards using the ball of the foot a little more. For me, there are two things involved: weight placement over the foot and the ability to move. If it's in the middle, I can move on the balls of heels of the foot. Maybe KPM can weigh in on this one. Also, K1 shifting, IMO, teaches proper attachment or "linking" of the hips. There seems to be a tension between front stance and side stances...like because of this tension, there is a tendency to be pulled and locked in to a stance. That's at least how if feels to me.

    Best,
    K
    Hey Kenton!

    You are absolutely right! A central idea in WCK is "sinking." Sinking involves lowering the center of gravity. But to stay mobile, this should be done on a forward vector and not straight downward. This is much easier to do with the weight on K1 than with the weight on the heels. One should sink with the knees converging and the center of gravity going towards a point approximately two feet out in front of you. This is a key feature of Robert Chu's "structure test." This also increases your "forward pressure", because you are already moving forward without even moving your feet. Keeping the weight back on the heels encourages one to do the dreaded "Wing Chun slouch." The K1 point is not the ball of the foot, but it is considered more as a zone or region. The actual point of weight distribution is going to vary between K1, ball of the foot, more over the arch, etc. What counts is what you are using as your baseline "balance point" as Kenton mentions. As I have pointed out earlier, there is a significant biomechanical difference between using K1 as your baseline balance point vs. using the heel as your baseline balance point.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    As a further observation, more for those interested in MMA nd the "glorified kickboxers", it's very hard to sprawl effectively if you are back on your heels or even flat footed.
    Alan Orr points out in his most recent DVD series that when you are using the body structure methods as taught by Robert Chu......with forward pressure using the hips, weight distribution at K1, and sinking towards a point in front of you....you are essentially doing a "sprawl" without moving your feet. So then if the guy goes deeper and you have to actually move your feet, the actual sprawl is just a natural extension.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    You know, some people have amazing foot work and force production and they don't even know what and where Kidney 1 is....
    K1 is just a label. Good biomechanics is good biomechanics no matter the source or labels utilized.

  7. #97

    Combining TWC central line/blindside strategies with C-O-M wing chun

    Not really part of the article - but a big factor for me personally over the last few years, as I've been working on this more than ever before.

    Taking advantage of opportunities to step to the parallel leg blindside (or creating the opportunities) can often be the follow-up/natural progression to working/fighting in a cross leg positioning (or even some sort of a neutral stance positioning).

    At one moment you're attacking the opponent's center of mass (regardless of which stances and relative positioning being used) and at the next moment you're on the outside of his lead leg with your parallel leg (ie.- your leading right leg vs. his leading left leg)...and deep into his zone attacking his flank.

    Just to stretch an analogy: similar to the "position" game that BJJ plays, for example.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 07-05-2008 at 08:23 AM.

  8. #98
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    Off Topic

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Keeping the weight back on the heels encourages one to do the dreaded "Wing Chun slouch."
    I also think the 'WC slouch' also has a lot to do with, um, laziness.

    I remember my Kenpo Karate classes, pushing myself to the limits sitting in a good riding horse stance. Thighs parallel to the ground, not letting that stick roll off my thighs or I had to do push-ups... It takes a lot of work! Look at those Tae Kwon Do demos at your local mall. All these people look like they're performing standing splits! Not horse stance!

    A lot of dummy vids I see, too (other than many 'older family' styles) have their dummy way to high. This doesn't mean that we squish our knees together and cause knee problems...it means to sink. Chum Kiu.

    As I recently said on another post: No Horse=No Kung-Fu!

    Rant over and out,
    K
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  9. #99
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Hey Kenton!

    You are absolutely right! A central idea in WCK is "sinking." Sinking involves lowering the center of gravity. But to stay mobile, this should be done on a forward vector and not straight downward. This is much easier to do with the weight on K1 than with the weight on the heels. One should sink with the knees converging and the center of gravity going towards a point approximately two feet out in front of you. This is a key feature of Robert Chu's "structure test." This also increases your "forward pressure", because you are already moving forward without even moving your feet. Keeping the weight back on the heels encourages one to do the dreaded "Wing Chun slouch." The K1 point is not the ball of the foot, but it is considered more as a zone or region. The actual point of weight distribution is going to vary between K1, ball of the foot, more over the arch, etc. What counts is what you are using as your baseline "balance point" as Kenton mentions. As I have pointed out earlier, there is a significant biomechanical difference between using K1 as your baseline balance point vs. using the heel as your baseline balance point.
    biomechanically, the heel is designed for creating a stable surface during the first part of the stance phase of gait over which the ankle / leg can ove anteriorly; the heal is therefore a relatively more stable structure than the mid- or fore-foot, both of which are successively more flexible in order to help distribute the weight of the body laterally in the foot, partially in order to create the recoil that occurs in the elastic connective tissue that helps to power push-off part during terminal stance; in other words, pushing off the ball of the foot goes hand-in-hand with forward motion;
    K1 ("bubbling well" or, as my teacher translates it, "subterranean spring"), does not really strike me as the ideal part of the foot to pivot off of IMHO, because it's more like the keystone of an arch, not a ground-connection point; as such, it really has more to do with force transfer from back to front than with release of that stored force; indeed, K1 has more to do with upward thrust, such as occurs when one "activates" the postural system vertically in gravity; but I could be wrong, just my perspective;
    as far as the "slouch" in WC, you see that a lot in taiji as well: some of my thoughts on that

    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt View Post
    IMHO actively tucking is a huge misunderstanding pervasive in the world of taiji; you also see a lot of Okinawan stylists do it with explanations ranging from "just because" to "it makes the spine stronger"; unfortunately, this makes no sense biomechanically / neuromuscularly; fortunately, we can use information from the field of biomechanics to help us understand various postural concepts as they relate to FUNCTIONAL spine usage;
    first off, the spine (and pelvis) are never static, so the idea of assuming and holding one position makes no sense - this holds even if you are doing static standing (zhang zhuan), because unless you stop breathing, you will have spinal movement because the way that the respiratory diaphragm, pelvic diaphragm, and even the pedal diaphragms work will require a "compensatory" spinal motion with every breath; not to mention the automatic vestibular system function vis a vis anti-gravity postural muscle function
    2nd, as far as how to organize the spine, the old time osteopaths had the term "easy flexion", which denotes a spine that is aligned, but not rigid; it's like a spring that is in the mid-range of it's excursion; this allows a responsiveness in the spine that keeps it "lively" and able to adapt to multi-directional forces that may challenge it; conversely, when you tuck the tailbone, you are essentially creating a posterior pelvic tilt, which is a relatively less mobile position of the pelvis relative to hips and lumbar spine (the two structures with which it articulates on a boney level); as such, you loose the ability to have a full-body mediated postural response, and will end up using muscles like hamstrings to orient in gravity, which is inefficient and imprecise; furthermore, a tuck also increases relative hip extension, which has the exact opposite effect of "sung kwa", which is what happens when you have a slight anterior pelvic tilt / relative increase in hip flexion which creates a "softening" of the kwa (inguinal crease / loins), and allows, among other things, relative less impedance of ground reaction force up the kinetic chain - which is the force you initiate by inhalation (respiratory diaphragm descends; ground reaction force responds), which is what you use to "float" the connective tissue matrix (FYI - TC Bob has some very nice ways of qualifying this experience as does Scott B. [I admit grudgingly, my abject hatred of him notwithstanding])
    the "point" of good spinal alignment is that it creates, among other things, a relative ideal situation within which the pelvic, abdominal and thoracic viscera can be pumped by the various diaphragms that abut them, in order to enhance clearance of lymphatic fluid and venous blood; the challenge is that it occurs in gravity, with all the organs predisposed to hanging down on top of each other (as opposed to quadrupeds, who don't have organ ptosis, prolapse or loading stress on a vertical spine)
    the "secret"to start with good principles, and then pay attention to what is happening - probably you shouldn't do anything that feels wrong, although if your sense of your body in space is skewed, you may not be able to make that assessment alone at the beginning;
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Good biomechanics is good biomechanics no matter the source or labels utilized.
    yes, yes, a thousand times, yes (especially when that "label" is so-called "internal"...)!

  10. #100
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    Chris wrote:
    biomechanically, the heel is designed for creating a stable surface during the first part of the stance phase of gait over which the ankle / leg can ove anteriorly; the heal is therefore a relatively more stable structure than the mid- or fore-foot, both of which are successively more flexible

    ---This is true. But the gait cycle for walking is not the same as martial footwork. The heel is a more stable surface and designed for repeated impact with walking. But the footwork used in martial arts does not typically involve a heel strike phase as seen in the gait cycle. Its the same for running...there is no heel strike when running.

    in other words, pushing off the ball of the foot goes hand-in-hand with forward motion;

    ---Exactly! And keeping the region around the ball of the foot as your baseline area for balance means that you are more prepared to launch in with forward momentum than if the weight and balance are back on the heels.


    K1 ("bubbling well" or, as my teacher translates it, "subterranean spring"), does not really strike me as the ideal part of the foot to pivot off of IMHO, because it's more like the keystone of an arch, not a ground-connection point; as such, it really has more to do with force transfer from back to front than with release of that stored force;

    ---I'm afraid here we must disagree. After all, look at other competitive sports. A tennis player keeps their weight forward and ready to spring into action by pushing off or pivoting at the region near the ball of the foot. The same for a football lineman ready to launch forward with the play goes into action. The same for the sprinter ready on the blocks waiting for the start signal. Very few athletic endeavors involve a "ready position" with the weight back on the heels.



    as far as the "slouch" in WC, you see that a lot in taiji as well: some of my thoughts on that

    ----I agree with what you wrote! In fact, in cooresponds pretty closely to the article I wrote on my website about the slouch.


    http://www.riograndewingchun.com/subpage2.html

  11. #101
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    Victor wrote:
    Taking advantage of opportunities to step to the parallel leg blindside (or creating the opportunities) can often be the follow-up/natural progression to working/fighting in a cross leg positioning (or even some sort of a neutral stance positioning).

    ---I agree. I use this footwork as well. I see it as coming from the Mook Jong footwork. On the Jong you usually immediately step back into his center rather than remaining on a 45 degree line in relation to the opponent. But there is no reason why one couldn't pause and work from this position.

    At one moment you're attacking the opponent's center of mass (regardless of which stances and relative positioning being used) and at the next moment you're on the outside of his lead leg with your parallel leg (ie.- your leading right leg vs. his leading left leg)...and deep into his zone attacking his flank.

    Just to stretch an analogy: similar to the "position" game that BJJ plays, for example.

    ---Yep! And from here you can easily go a little further and "get his back" as is so commonly sought on the ground in BJJ!

  12. #102
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    the gait cycle for walking is not the same as martial footwork. The heel is a more stable surface and designed for repeated impact with walking. But the footwork used in martial arts does not typically involve a heel strike phase as seen in the gait cycle.
    if you do a forward lunge to close distance, there is a heel strike; it just may be very quick / not last as long as during gait;

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    the gait cycle for walking is not the same as martial footwork. The heel is a more stable surface and designed for repeated impact with walking. But the footwork used in martial arts does not typically involve a heel strike phase as seen in the gait cycle. Its the same for running...there is no heel strike when running.
    running biomechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I'm afraid here we must disagree. After all, look at other competitive sports. A tennis player keeps their weight forward and ready to spring into action by pushing off or pivoting at the region near the ball of the foot. The same for a football lineman ready to launch forward with the play goes into action. The same for the sprinter ready on the blocks waiting for the start signal.
    actually, I need to correct something: when I was thinking about the location of K1, I had it located a bit differently in my mind than it actually is (just looked it up in Wiseman): the spot I was referring to as the "keystone" of the arch is the cubo-navicular joint, which is posterior to the location of K1 - but because it's the main point that I "use" as a reference iclinically and in my own practice, I got them mixed up - mea culpa; anyway based on the actual location of K1, we are in agreement - that is the area I was talking about as ideal for a pivot (heck, even my old TKD teacher taught us to punch using those mechanics, LOL)

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Very few athletic endeavors involve a "ready position" with the weight back on the heels.
    absolutely;

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ----I agree with what you wrote! In fact, in cooresponds pretty closely to the article I wrote on my website about the slouch.
    http://www.riograndewingchun.com/subpage2.html
    very nice; I would say that, by comparison, a lot of people i see who practice Cheng style taiji do the same thing, and when you look at him, it seems like he is doing it as well; of course, he always wore a long robe-like outfit - which tends to give the appearance of the flattened back, or at the very least hides what is really going on...
    another reason why people may prefer this is that if they lack good proprioception (and many people do, either intrinsically or due to lifestyle / trauma history), then being in a balanced state of the pelvis might actually make them feel unstable, because it is a position of dynamic stabilization; if you go into that slouch, you now are getting prop feedback via the pressure on the joints / ligaments - so you at least "know" where you are and feel more stable / grounded; so part of the skill (dare i say it, "internal skill"?) is to be able to be in a balanced neutral, and to feel secure there without needing to walk down the hallway with your hand on the wall, so to speak...so I would say it's not just being lazy, it's acting out of an internally generated predisposition for needing feedback and not getting it when one is actually aligned (of course, with proper training this can be changed, theoretically);
    Last edited by cjurakpt; 07-06-2008 at 12:50 PM.

  13. #103
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    running biomechanics

    ---Ah! My turn to say "mea culpa" and submit a correction. I was thinking of sprinting, not running!


    another reason why people may prefer this is that if they lack good proprioception (and many people do, either intrinsically or due to lifestyle / trauma history), then being in a balanced state of the pelvis might actually make them feel unstable, because it is a position of dynamic stabilization; if you go into that slouch, you now are getting prop feedback via the pressure on the joints / ligaments - so you at least "know" where you are and feel more stable / grounded;

    ---Excellent point! I hadn't thought of it that way. I may need to update that article!

  14. #104
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---Ah! My turn to say "mea culpa" and submit a correction. I was thinking of sprinting, not running!
    see? we are both very good at being wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---Excellent point! I hadn't thought of it that way. I may need to update that article!
    since you find it of interest, I'll take it a step further, vis a vis the notion of being "lazy" - if I have a bit of a personal gripe w/the term, it's because a lot of the "low tone" (hate that term really, very imprecise) kids i work with (I am a pediatric PT) are called "lazy" because of how they sit, stand, walk, etc., and of course when we assess them clinically they have a lot of proprioceptive / vestibular integration (or lack thereof) issues that manifest as less than robust recruitment of anti-gravity postural exensors (glutes, glute med, transversus abdominus, lower scapular stabilizers, etc. - basically according to the same model for dysfunctional posture and agonist / antagonist balance proposed in orthopedics by Janda, Levitt); yada yada, the bottom line is that a lot of the time what seems to be happening is that they are having to consciously manage what should be sub-cortical postural responses; this has been proposed to be something like 80% more energy consumptive (I forget why that #, can look it up if needed); take home message - if you are having to cortically mediate postural responses, it's understandable why you would be pooped, and why you would "hang" on the ligaments; in terms of relevance to the "average" Joe, I would first draw a line to the general adult ortho pop (especially LB pain) and we see very similar circumstances; and since we are typically looking at a continuum, a lot of the non-symptomatic population demonstrates similar postural issues, but just don't develop the symptoms;
    so, point is that maintaining a dynamic neutral is more energy consumptive at least at first - which is why people have a hard time with "post standing" at the beginning, because they are trying to consciously stay in a state of dynamic balance; later on, when you get the connection of breathing to postural response (the idea of the diaphragm descending creating an equal upward thrust from the ground), you don't have to spend the same amount of energy to do it;
    I guess over time as one becomes more efficient, one can not only more easily maintain the more aligned posture, one can work technique in that position and maintain the structure - probably this is a big watershed in terms of chi sao (or push hands) - when you get over that hump, your listening and responses get faster, more accurate, etc.
    anyway, I am interested to hear your comments, and again, very much enjoyed reading your article: more on this should be written, IMHO (well, i am working on it, when time allows, LOL)

  15. #105
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    Alan Orr points out in his most recent DVD series that when you are using the body structure methods as taught by Robert Chu
    Wow, so those guys know as much about this as I do!
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