how do you do things defferently?

[HardWork8]

I think these chum kiu ground fighting techs would be fairly unique to your system too. Any footage?

I am afraid that as yet there is no footage. However, some Wing Chun ground fighting was demonstrated in a recent seminar here in London by my sifu, who was visiting from Brasil, and I believe that at least 2 members of this forum, from the Lee Shing lineage, were present at that event.

Perhaps they can add their take on the WC groundfighting and the seminar in general.

[LoneTiger108]

... I believe that at least 2 members of this forum, from the Lee Shing lineage, were present at that event.

Perhaps they can add their take...

As I've mentioned before, what I saw was quite impressive. Having, or exploring, groundfighting as an element to your WCK is fine and these guys have a solid root in Shaolin so it really was just a reflection of that imo. How to take your concepts to the floor seems to work quite easily, especially if you have solid legwork, although we may never be as thorough as some who spend ALL their time on the floor.

I guess this really boils down to defining exactly what is and isn't classified these days as Wing Chun.

I personally don't like to put us all into a box, and I would say openly to people that if you do 'develop' your ground tactics be sure to remember the character of the snake! We covered plently of sitting and kneeling work at a very early stage, so I guess this may be something different too.

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the 'need' to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the 'need' to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different...

You got that right.

[HardWork8]

As I've mentioned before, what I saw was quite impressive. Having, or exploring, groundfighting as an element to your WCK is fine and these guys have a solid root in Shaolin so it really was just a reflection of that imo. How to take your concepts to the floor seems to work quite easily, especially if you have solid legwork, although we may never be as thorough as some who spend ALL their time on the floor.

I guess this really boils down to defining exactly what is and isn't classified these days as Wing Chun.

I personally don't like to put us all into a box, and I would say openly to people that if you do 'develop' your ground tactics be sure to remember the character of the snake! We covered plently of sitting and kneeling work at a very early stage, so I guess this may be something different too.

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the 'need' to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different...

Speaking solely from the Siu Lam Wing Chun point of view, ground fighting has always been part of this lineage.

It is not a modern addition and uses the Wing Chun concepts and principles together with the required techniques (hand strikes, kicks and Chin- na) to subdue the adversary.

I do believe that those practicioners who believe that for whatever reason, they are more likely to face adversaries with a "ground game", can go on to place more emphasis on the groundfighting aspects of Wing Chun. However, other aspects of this rich art have to be trained to a high level.

For example, what would be the point of tigerclawing an adversary's throat on the ground if the claw does not have the power to do damage!

As far as being put in the box is concerned, it seems that unfortunately and more often than not, it is other Wing Chun practitioners who put us in a box and the minute they see something different, they start screaming at the top of their voices

I know that you and I both have been through this many times before.

[LSWCTN1]

[QUOTE=Among key differences-1. structure
2. stance-no sidebody
3. pole usage-holding and handling different from Goh's
[/QUOTE]

Hi Joy, thank you for the response - my lineage is also through Lee Shing/Joseph Cheng and i have noticed on another thread you mentioning the difference between Paul Lam and Joseph Cheng. Mr. Lam must have been one hell of a student!

i think that one person’s expression of wing chun may well be completely different from another’s, even within the same lineage. it is their own, personal, kung fu (props to hardwork8's sifu for that-i like the saying a lot). however the question i was posing was along the lines of components of the systems, rather than how the system is expressed

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...WCP.Components - this is mostly what i was referring to. Ho Kam Ming is a true master and you must feel privileged to be a part of that lineage, as I am mine.

I know that the side (or slant) body we employ at times is a relatively rare way of doing things in the wing chun world,

Although i have never seen it, from the stories & history of TWC as i have read it, i would have thought that they employ slant body more so than some other Ip Man WC, as this was the 'other' side to Leung Jans wing chun

this thread is starting to pick up pace now - thanks for all the answers everybody. This is the sort of discussion i was hoping for!

[Vajramusti]

I have no problem with the diversity in WC. Good luck with yours.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

When we compare WC to other ground fighting we are not usually making a fair comparison. In watching the MMA fights on TV I have seen them billed and introduced as Jujitsu, Mui Thai, kung fu, Karate, and just about every other form of fighting skill. Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape. These guys are trained to this, and it seems that no system holds up. I keep watching and expecting the guy to do something that is some semblence of MA skill in making his escape, but it don't ever happen. If he escapes it is in the form of some sort of squirming or something.
Back in the 60's, Mui Thai was probably one of the most popular MA you could find. In Bangkok they held fights with absolutely no rules to fight by. I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns. The most brutal and fierce fighting you could imagine. Yet people trained in it are still spending the entire fight on their backs trying to escape. So why would WC be any different? Some systems will have stronger ground fighting techniques, but it will never be an easy thing if you are fighting against someone that is very large and strong and that has been trained to this sort of fighting. If you are involved in an altercation with someone that is not a ring fighter or trained MA fighter you will be able to escape most any attack where you are tossed to the ground. I have many, many ground fighting techniques that are fairly similar to Jap jujitsu, and they will get you out from under a large, strong man if you train them and apply them with conviction.

[Vajramusti]

Jap jujitsu
-------------------------
(sic)/ Good grief.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape.

Counterexamples:

Allen Goes vs Kazushi Sakuraba (one of the earlier Prides)

Renzo Gracie vs Oleg Taktarov (going back a long way, but still)

Antonio Inoki vs Muhammad Ali (laugh, but Inoki didn't get hit and you can bet Ali's legs were bruised as all hell).

A guy in my MMA class who won his last MMA fight by triangle choke, along with a cast of thousands who have done the same (or used armbars, armbar triangles, guillotine chokes, got the back and choked them out, etc etc) all over the world over more than a decade (if you count Vale Tudo, several decades).

TWC has had groundfighting in it for a long time. So have other styles of KF (and WC, no doubt). I had my first groundfighting lesson from a KF teacher in 1977. A lot of it was not dissimilar to (some of) what Goes did in the aforementioned match above.

I don't care if you're jujitsu comers form Japan, Brazil, or Mars. If a good ground and pound guy gets mount or side control on you, you are in deep trouble and will need lots of luck to escape. Most of the skilful fighting on the bottom is done from the guard, which is what TWC does as well, though it is a very rudimentary guard and it's not called that anyway.

But the aims of TWC ground fighting is to keep the guy away so you can get back up, or hurt him if he gets close and does something stupid like putting his head or shin inside kicking range. The aims of BJJ and MMA are very different.

I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns.

I doubt that MT has killed more people than guns did in various world wars and more recent regional conflicts.

[Mr Punch]

When we compare WC to other ground fighting we are not usually making a fair comparison. In watching the MMA fights on TV I have seen them billed and introduced as Jujitsu, Mui Thai, kung fu, Karate, and just about every other form of fighting skill. Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape. These guys are trained to this, and it seems that no system holds up. I keep watching and expecting the guy to do something that is some semblence of MA skill in making his escape, but it don't ever happen. If he escapes it is in the form of some sort of squirming or something.

1) You don't know what you're looking at.
2) These people are both trained so that should the fight go to ground, they can finish it there if necessary. While some obviously look for these positions, the main reason these people appear to be doing nothing is because they have a good idea what will get them submitted. It's like chess: they wait, they seemingly do nothing, and when they do you don't know the point... then they win. If a skilled chess-player plays someone who doesn't know much chess, the match will be a lot quicker and more decisive and you'll be able to see his skill level in say the five moves it takes for him to get checkmate. In the same way, if you put someone with no ground experience against a top-flight jujutsuka, they'll be done in a flash (time and movement!).

BTW, in case you missed the last 15 years this has been proven again and again by the number of people who've challenged Gracies and many other top grapplers and lost (inc blackbelts from countless other arts), the number of matches of highly trained fighters in the UFC, Pride, Shooto and other promotions which have a higher proportion of submission wins than stand-up and the huge number of top artists in many stand-up arts who advocate doing some kind of groundfighting style to supplement their main arts. You are in a minority of people who refuse to see this.

3) 'Some sort of squirming...' LOL... do you mean shrimping? Do you mean one of the countless sweep variations? Do you mean bridging? This proves you don't know what you're looking at: there's the martial skill right there... if you don't agree, YOU go and lie under a BJJ blackbelt/wrestler and see if you can get out with or without squirming...

... I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns.

I would venture you're talking out your arse there.

Some systems will have stronger ground fighting techniques...

Wing chun is not one of them.

If you are involved in an altercation with someone that is not a ring fighter or trained MA fighter you will be able to escape most any attack where you are tossed to the ground.

Really? I'd bet your average gym rat with a drunken bum tackle, any rugby player and half of the plain nasty b astards I've met against any of the chunners I've met, on the ground. Part of the reason being chunners' enormous egos as demonstrated by 90% of your posts (and mine ) and partly because wing chun's groundfighting, throws and takedowns, from what I've seen has been crap. And I've seen a lot of wing chun lines. Now, if you, or HW8 have the real wing chun groundfighting, I'd love to see some of it against a non-chunner in a non-compliant situation. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying it's not likely to be much use.

Can't believe the chun 'community' are still going round in these circles... Nah... I can.

...Jap jujitsu...

I find it hard to believe you don't know that this is an offensive expression... which makes you a pr!ck.

[unkokusai]

1) You don't know what you're looking at.
2) These people are both trained so that should the fight go to ground, they can finish it there if necessary. While some obviously look for these positions, the main reason these people appear to be doing nothing is because they have a good idea what will get them submitted. It's like chess: they wait, they seemingly do nothing, and when they do you don't know the point... then they win. If a skilled chess-player plays someone who doesn't know much chess, the match will be a lot quicker and more decisive and you'll be able to see his skill level in say the five moves it takes for him to get checkmate. In the same way, if you put someone with no ground experience against a top-flight jujutsuka, they'll be done in a flash (time and movement!).

BTW, in case you missed the last 15 years this has been proven again and again by the number of people who've challenged Gracies and many other top grapplers and lost (inc blackbelts from countless other arts), the number of matches of highly trained fighters in the UFC, Pride, Shooto and other promotions which have a higher proportion of submission wins than stand-up and the huge number of top artists in many stand-up arts who advocate doing some kind of groundfighting style to supplement their main arts. You are in a minority of people who refuse to see this.

3) 'Some sort of squirming...' LOL... do you mean shrimping? Do you mean one of the countless sweep variations? Do you mean bridging? This proves you don't know what you're looking at: there's the martial skill right there... if you don't agree, YOU go and lie under a BJJ blackbelt/wrestler and see if you can get out with or without squirming...

I would venture you're talking out your arse there.

Wing chun is not one of them.

Really? I'd bet your average gym rat with a drunken bum tackle, any rugby player and half of the plain nasty b astards I've met against any of the chunners I've met, on the ground. Part of the reason being chunners' enormous egos as demonstrated by 90% of your posts (and mine ) and partly because wing chun's groundfighting, throws and takedowns, from what I've seen has been crap. And I've seen a lot of wing chun lines. Now, if you, or HW8 have the real wing chun groundfighting, I'd love to see some of it against a non-chunner in a non-compliant situation. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying it's not likely to be much use.

Can't believe the chun 'community' are still going round in these circles... Nah... I can.

I find it hard to believe you don't know that this is an offensive expression... which makes you a pr!ck.

That was an excellent post right there!

[LSWCTN1]

not necessarily sticking up for anyone here - but Wang Kui only had 2.5 years with Ip Man by his own admission - and he was/is **** good!

his sifu when i met him was a well above average wc man and very welcoming. Fung Sui Ching lineage if i remember correctly? his students i met (although hardwork8 wasnt there) seemed to have a good grasp of wc and could use it - not alway that common

there is also Moy Yat and HFY lineage in brazil - its not exactly weak WC is it?

[LSWCTN1]

i have never met hardwork8, although i have met his sifu - i think perhaps contempt breeds contempt. i dont know (or care) started it and im not taking any sides as i dont know the reasons behind the argument(s).

just because things cannot be proven on paper do not make them untrue... Leung Bik?

i know his sifu had a deep knowledge of kung fu in general and wing chun in particular. and i was relatively impressed by what i saw during the 6hours i spent with him.

anyway....

keep the different components coming, im finding it facinating!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have no issues with his Sifu, nor his system of WC.

As for his Sifu, I have met many WC sifu and I have liked them all and respected them all, yes even Emin, LOL.
Fact is WC is a wonderful system that I enjoyed and still use certain parts to this very day.
It just has many flakes, like all other MA it seems.

As for doing thing differently, we all do, that's were styles come from.
As for ground fighting in WC, sure it has it, every system has it, are they comprable to system that specialize in it?
No, and any person that tells you differently truly has no idea.
Can they be "good enough"?
One must ask good enough for whom?

As for cross training, we had a thread about it and the vast majority have done it for geographical reasons , myself included and other to work on certain specilaizations (like ground work and submissions) that are lacking in our core system.
Fact is, if you want to work on a highly specialized skill set, you must seek out a system that specializes in it, it is common sense.

[anerlich]

nothing but GLORIFIED KICKBOXERS!

You could do a lot worse than to be a kickboxer, glorified or otherwise.