How do you master several different martial arts in a very short time?

[Becca]

Beat me to it.

Functional is a whole different ballgame than whatever modality you cater the term master with.

Often they are not even equal in description. Meaning you can have some sort of mechanical mastery of an art form, the same as would a trained dancer, but not be able to apply anything you know in a real world context.

Agreed.
In Pai Lum, you can become "functional" by working the individual techniques taught in the very first beginner's form for a few days on a heavy bag. There are many, many more than that, though, just to master the begginer's level. And mastering the begginers level isn't mastering the art, it is just adding an orange fringe to your newby sash.

[Ray Pina]

I would argue that even throwing crisp combinations on a heavy bag doesn't necessarily make you a functional martial artist. The bag doesn't strike back.

When you are calm, when it is an every day thing to enter and exit the pocket under fire, then you are on your way.

[SPJ]

Dear all,
Is it possible for any one to tell me how can someone master several different martial arts while having a full time job & social life? I asked this question because some of the martial arts adverts I have saw where the instructors (masters) claiming to be teachers in several different martial arts. However, they are 28 - 40s years old. According to the traditional martial arts system, it takes at least 30 years of serious training before anyone can call themselves a master in the traditional martial arts system. There is no way those people can be masters of in several different martial arts, except:
1) they are conmen
2) jack of all trade and master of none
3) very talented genius.


Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)

Wing chun - about 4 &1/2 years, 5-7 hours a day practicing + fighing people.

boxing - at least a year before you fight in a ring, 2 hours per day.

kick boxing - at least a year before you fight in a ring, 2 hours per day.

Hung kuen - 8 -10 years, 5-7 hours a day practicing + fighting people

western fencing - at least a year before you fight in a bout, 2 hours per day training. 3 years later you can become an instructor.

average black belt - 3 years, 2 hours a day.


In the tradition Japanese martial arts - black belt means that you have just started to understand martial arts.

I have calculated that you need at least 22 years of serious training (8-10 hours trainging per day) in order to master 5 different oriental martial arts (knowing everything about them and reach a high level of standard in fighting). I mean knowing the history of the system, forms, fighting application, weapons and herbal medicine to cure yourself and your students.
You also need to find the time to practise the other martial arts you have already know, so that you will not forget about them. Therefore, how come there are adverts and seminar telling people that you can become a martial arts instructor or body guard after 1 or 2 day seminar!
I remembered seeing "Faking it in USA" several years ago, where a kinder garden school teacher without any martial arts training trained as a body guard in 4 weeks, 7-10 intensive training per day. She had passed her test by convincing the experts that she was a bodyguard. However, she got experts help and she did not have to fight anyone for more than 5 seconds in the test!
For example, for an average student to obtain a degree in any of the UK university, he or she suppose to have spend at least 3 years (full time) learning it. 7 hours in the class, 5 -6 hours doing the home work and reading your notes. To obtain 7 different degrees, you need at least 21 years to complete them + spending several years revising the other degrees you have already got. Therefore, you need at least 25 years to learn and retain all your knowledge in those 7 degrees.

The length of time needed to obtain 7 degrees should not be much different from learning 7 totally different martial arts. How did those instructors (under 40s) master 7 - 10 different martial arts system, while having full time jobs (not related to martial arts), social life and families?

Thank you
Hitman

We may learn as many arts/styles as we want.

however, due to physical attributes/features of our body, we may only practice and excel in only one or just a few skills.

1. Tai Chi stress yielding aspect.

2. Xing Yi straight "marching" on.

3. Ba Gua walking and avoiding stepping.

each style stressing some key skills or tactics and strategy.

even among each style, practitioners are known for different skills.

1. Cheng Ting Hua was known for shuai jiao, so his ba gua is full of throws.

2. Yin Fu and Shi Ji Dong were known for luo han shou and tan tui. Their ba gua are full of fast punches and fast kicks.

3. Hang Qing Tan was very good in qin na. even thou he knew many other stuffs. He is still recognised by his qin na skills.

http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=756

in short, we may practice and excel in only a few skills no matter how may stuff we would like to learn and "master".

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would argue that even throwing crisp combinations on a heavy bag doesn't necessarily make you a functional martial artist. The bag doesn't strike back.

When you are calm, when it is an every day thing to enter and exit the pocket under fire, then you are on your way.

Depends on who is inside the bag...

[SPJ]

Tai chi likes to be like water.

Xing Yi likes to be a spear.

Ba Gua likes to be a wind.

--

[Laukarbo]

To me a master is the one that produces fine practicioner which eventually become teachers themself but more importantly become good people,a master is someone that understands the purpose of his chosen style..someone who is able to defend himself when neccessary...

a master is not undefeatable no human is

[Laukarbo]

and most importantly a master should never have the surname Bate

[sanjuro_ronin]

and most importantly a master should never have the surname Bate

I knew a Master Bateman.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Thank for your answers they are very interesting.



RD'S Alias - 1A

"First, some of your premises are wrong. ALL styles, no matter what they are should be functional in 12 to 18 months top, even Tai Chi."

Some of my premises are from:

Wing chun - Sifu Duncan Leung

Hung kuen - late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong


I do not know who train you and how the kung fu masters teach in America, but I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers in London only teach their students forms, with very little application in fighting. I based my observation on how their students fight in tournaments, as well as my own experience. They fought like boxers and kick boxers, but unable to use any of their kung fu techniques.
I used to know two Tai Chi teachers who had spent 15 years (2 hours per day training) learning from a traditional Chinese Tai Chi master. All they learned were forms and they could not even defence themselves in a fight! Therefore, until those kung fu instructors and masters change their minds about actually teaching their students something useful beside forms, then there is no way anyone can fight with their kung fu forms after 40 years of training, let alone 18 months. They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.




"Your Hung gar times are off the scale. You can learn JUST the techniques found first section of the first form and be taking names in 6 months with that style."


Here is part of the interview of a famous Hung Kuen master, the late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong with a BBC television reporter in 1980s:

"I have several thousands of pupils, but not even ten of them are good enough to be instructors. Hung Kuen is a very difficult to learn and no one can teach others if he or she is not an expert. It takes at least eight years for me to teach the student properly, whereas people will learn for only two or three years before they leave."

Master Chan used to train 5 hours a day in Hung Kuen. If master Chan of the Hung Kuen style said to me that it would take him at least 8 years to teach Hung Kuen to me properly, how does anyone think that it is possible for me to master it in 9 - 10 years?



"Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)"


I am talking about learning the whole system and use it in a fight. I am not talking about learning few effective techniques.


If anyone call themselves masters , then I would expect them to know (as well as mastered) at least 80 -100% of their kung fu system. However, if a half bucketful instructor who know less than 50% of his system and call himself/herself a master, then this makes the title "master" to become worthless.


The classical Japanese sword fighting school - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu give 3 stages of acknowledgement of achievement to their students. A diligent student received his first scroll after about 5 years. He got his second scroll after another 5 years. The third scroll only awarded to senior instructors who have been trained with the Ryu for a total of 15 years. The American scholar, Don Draegar was the only non Japanese ever to have achieved this rank in the Ryu (before 1982).


Thank you

Hitman

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question?

[NJM]

If you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question?

Because he wanted us to pay attention to his beating-the-dead-horse blog.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.

Ah, I see now.
All is clear.

[Hitman]

I ask this question because:

1) one person from work told me that he had met a kung fu master (under 40s), who has mastered 7 different martial arts (teacher is from India?). This master could apply his kung fu skills in a fight.
2) other person told me his former kung fu instructor know 6 different kung fu styles and created his own style (teacher is from Hong Kong)
3) a friend told me that his teacher know 5 different Japanese martial arts and able to use it (teacher is from Japan).



They all wanted me to join their classes. I know the state of Chinese kung fu being taught in London. However, I do not know the level of martial arts skills being taught in other countries. I do not believe that it is possible for some one to learn 7 different martial arts under 40s old, so I thought to ask the experts' advice in this forum, before I wasted my time and money to attend those classes.
Some of the replies told me that it is possible to learn 5 different styles.

Thank you

Hitman

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD'S Alias - 1A

"First, some of your premises are wrong. ALL styles, no matter what they are should be functional in 12 to 18 months top, even Tai Chi."

Some of my premises are from:

Wing chun - Sifu Duncan Leung

Hung kuen - late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong

Reply]
Maybe they didn't actually want to teach thier art.

I do not know who train you and how the kung fu masters teach in America, but I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers in London only teach their students forms, with very little application in fighting.

Reply]
Then they are not actually teaching the style, they are just giving out the wrapper it came in.

I based my observation on how their students fight in tournaments, as well as my own experience. They fought like boxers and kick boxers, but unable to use any of their kung fu techniques.

Reply]
No surprise there, they were not taught thier art, only the forms. Forms are not supposed to be taught until AFTER the style has become proficient. They are not teaching tools, but advanced tools of refinement and cataloging.

I used to know two Tai Chi teachers who had spent 15 years (2 hours per day training) learning from a traditional Chinese Tai Chi master. All they learned were forms and they could not even defence themselves in a fight!

Reply]
Thier teacher did not teach them the art, just gave out the wrapper.


Therefore, until those kung fu instructors and masters change their minds about actually teaching their students something useful beside forms, then there is no way anyone can fight with their kung fu forms after 40 years of training, let alone 18 months.

Reply]
Not all lines are modern forms collectors. There are still some old school systems that teach the fighting style the old way. In a system like that, 18 months will produce a fairly skilled fightter who can hold is own in a surprising number of situations. Many of those pure Old School lines are out of China, in Indonesia and Malaysia and the USA, but there are still real Old school Chinese masters in China too. Look for the schools that don't teach forms until you can fight with it's techniques.


They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.

Reply]
Real Kung Fu does not look like a movie, but it does not look like Kick boxing either. Kick Boxing is a basic defense method hardwired into our genes. If one has to fight, and is not trained to, the genetic fall back style emerges.

All these modern Kung Fu systems that are teaching just the from choreography are NOT teaching the style's methods fo fighting, so thier students fall back to the original bootup style that is loaded in human brain's MS windows, which is crude crappy kick boxing and smothering tackles.

In essence by only teaching the forms, they are not passing on the style (If they even learned it from thier teachers), and it has died. Only the name and the pretty wrapping paper lived on in thier lines. You have to search and find an old school line that was not demilitarized in modern times.



"Your Hung gar times are off the scale. You can learn JUST the techniques found first section of the first form and be taking names in 6 months with that style."


Here is part of the interview of a famous Hung Kuen master, the late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong with a BBC television reporter in 1980s:

"I have several thousands of pupils, but not even ten of them are good enough to be instructors.

Reply]
Becaus he'sa crappy teacher. The very fact that he does not have anyone able to teach, dspite all this time, and thousands of students is absolute proof of his utter failure as a teacher.

Hung Kuen is a very difficult to learn and no one can teach others if he or she is not an expert. It takes at least eight years for me to teach the student properly, whereas people will learn for only two or three years before they leave."

Reply]
Bull shit. This person is not a real teacher, and is not interested in passing his art to anyone. It's all a facade with him, or he'd have Hungar fighters in Months, instead of years. I can take a TAPE of Hungar and it's basic apps and martial strategies, teach off the TAPE and have real Hungar fighters in 18 months. I don't even do the style, I just have an introduction to it. However, i know HOW to teach, apparently others don't.



Master Chan used to train 5 hours a day in Hung Kuen. If master Chan of the Hung Kuen style said to me that it would take him at least 8 years to teach Hung Kuen to me properly, how does anyone think that it is possible for me to master it in 9 - 10 years?

Reply]
Because he sux, and learned half assed backwards. THAT is why it takes these guys so long to learn and teach. they START with the forms. that is totally wrong. Only in MODERN times, like the last 3 generations did Kung fu training start there.

I learned the first section of the Tiger Crane form. There is enough applications in the BOW alone to make a solid Hung gar fighter quickly. All you need is to drill that, and maybe the first section of the form with resisting partners, and have a detailed explanation of how those techniques are applied, and you can fight in the Hungar style. ANYONE who can't get a student proficient in 18 months either does not know how to teach, doesn't WANT to teach the art, or never knew it in the first place and only had the superfical most part of it (IE the forms)



"Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)"


I am talking about learning the whole system and use it in a fight. I am not talking about learning few effective techniques.

Reply]
Then you are talking about Mastery, that would be 10 years of full time training.


If anyone call themselves masters , then I would expect them to know (as well as mastered) at least 80 -100% of their kung fu system. However, if a half bucketful instructor who know less than 50% of his system and call himself/herself a master, then this makes the title "master" to become worthless.

Reply]
Not if that 50% or less person can kick the snot out of the puffy masters who only teach forms. Actually, knowing the forms, and being good at them is only about 10% of the style anyway. It was originally the LAST thing one learned AFTER mastering the art. It was a Diploma of sorts.

So if you have a guy who knows only one form of the system, but can fight well with every aspect of it, he is more a master than the guy that knows all the forms.
Why? because he's got 90% of the style already, and the guy who knows all the forms only has 10% of the style.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

RD, when the fuck are you going to learn how to use the god damn quote function. You take what little pleasure there is away from reading the threads which you participate in. Press the QUOTE button INSTEAD of hitting REPLY~!