Lan Sau / Bong Sau

[couch]

I have the re-published Moy Yat Kuen Kuit book. Over breakfast I was reading it and came across something interesting:

"Lan Sao:
Bong Sao going back to centerline."

I find this interesting and it may change the way I think about the Bong.

So if my centre is locked on to my opponent's, I can use Lan. If I shift to a side-stance, I expose my own elbow. A good thing I can do is to Bong. Is this another way of thinking of the Bong? The fact that my centre isn't locked on (or facing - I've shifted), so I raise my elbow up for extra structural support.

For most drills for me, my Bong comes out on my centre and then 'reads' the energy...either flipping to Tan or just having the punch come over top or turning the Bong into an elbow.

What does this Kuen Kuit say to you and how do you use the Bong? (Or Lan for that matter...)

Best,
Kenton

[KPM]

I'm not familiar with the book, or the kuen kuit. But it would seem to be referring to the move in the Chum Kiu form that pivots from Lan to Bong and back again. It may be the idea that starting from your original centerline, the Bong departs from it in the process of pivoting and deflecting a blow and then the Lan returns to it as you pivot back to the original line.

[Vajramusti]

There are other Ip Man kuit collections besides Moy Yat's-though I respect him and his.

A good and kind student of mine gave me an unpublished gift based on the Fong and Ho traditions
and includes chinese lettering, words and English translation.
One that I like is
"Lon sau in Chum Kiu is a forceful technique"==cham kiu laan sau faat han hung

If your chor ma training is good you can change from bong to lan or the reverse as needed...
changing levels and direction-
either can be used -on line-for attack or defense depending on the context.

Good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

Thanks, Gentlemen.

I think with Wing Chun, it's a "thinking person's art." Therefore we can interpret the saying various ways.

I was thinking along the same lines as how the Lan and Bong are so similar. And how if my 'original centre' has moved due to a pivot, then the structure is weak if I remain in Lan Sau. So I raise my elbow up to compensate for the change facing and create a Wing Arm. Therefore I have a similar technique to Lan, except it's now more stable for the situation.

In many drills, the Bong is met with straight, incoming force. But you hear talk of people such as Kevin Gledhill say that the Bong redirects an attack away from the centre so that you can just punch overtop of it (and he has also said that if you are too far away for a punch, then that's when Lop comes into play). There are many contradictions in WC, but I wonder if such drills as Bong Lop Da are missing the point? Maybe that's a drill that has been over-emphasized.

Just thinking out loud... And everyone is welcome to think with me!

Best,
Kenton

[k gledhill]

I have the re-published Moy Yat Kuen Kuit book. Over breakfast I was reading it and came across something interesting:

"Lan Sao:
Bong Sao going back to centerline."

I find this interesting and it may change the way I think about the Bong.

So if my center is locked on to my opponent's, I can use Lan. If I shift to a side-stance, I expose my own elbow. A good thing I can do is to Bong. Is this another way of thinking of the Bong? The fact that my center isn't locked on (or facing - I've shifted), so I raise my elbow up for extra structural support.

For most drills for me, my Bong comes out on my center and then 'reads' the energy...either flipping to Tan or just having the punch come over top or turning the Bong into an elbow.

What does this Kuen Kuit say to you and how do you use the Bong? (Or Lan for that matter...)

Best,
Kenton

bong moves across the centerline ,>I< every time you do chi-sao , not forwards . this allows any contact it makes to redirect in the direction the arm is going ,ergo we control our arm by elbow positions not wrist energy 'feeling' if you put a lot of force onto the bong you go..sideways , opening up the rear hands strike or follow up action. the bong alone can shift your arm out of the way also using ballistic force like a pak sao, and immediately dropping the arm to tan . This is a repeated action in chi sao for 'unthinking' attack with bong back to hit ...It allows us to move forwards attacking without making the bong a 'hard' block forwards ...for which we would use ....
lan, this is similar to a 'fence' that does not shift energy , it traps as a line allowing us to attack by prohibiting the movement of an arm . it is used in conjunction with heel>into ground >shuffling for engaging the quadriceps in short explosive attacking movements ...inch punch isnt just 'punching' its everything we do has this 'ging' shock , energy delivery.

bong is like a conveyor belt of energy to 'knock away' energy coming across its line.
so the strikes emanating from the 'freehand/vusao' can strike uninterrupted , using the lin sil di da training of the individual arms to use the forearm to maintain a protective 'zone' sweep as the strike occupies the space created by the bongs shocking displacement.
Many use the bong with contact along as the 'feeling intent' , we are simply creating a non thinking response to a punch/grab etc..moving over OUR attacking line/space..no pre-contact is required to know the 'intent'.
Bong vu are repeated in CK for the delivery of the vu from the bicep area , to sweep the zone it clears as it strikes ergo repeating it a lot for right vu placement.
lop sao isnt the primary following hand to bong, but you will see many not doing a bong correctly 'requiring' lop to displace the arm on top of it , because the bong is simply being used as a hard shape to interrupt by going up and forwards...no movement of the attacking limb so the other hand needs to grab it and move it, we do this only if our bong didnt work right was too low etc...

bong /jut drills , turning jut from bong ...CK JUT is used because it allows forwards attack continuation even if it misses the intended 'jut' its firing in at the line of attack , opposed to lops redirection and recovery thinking controling to recover...sideways ...

just a btw i met a man through my old sifu ,who was a direct student of Yip Man , didnt get too far in the system but did his SLT bong sao xing over the centerline .
Many use the centerline as the place to put hands ON , rather than to x it as they move along it...

if you dont x it as you strike its like doing a drive on a road while facing oncoming traffic on the same road , or standing in the middle of a 2 lane highway facing oncoming from either side...
if you drive on one side that intersects the other road you only need to worry about whats in front of your car when its there....otherwise you just put it in gear and cruise control to destination.

[couch]

Thanks a lot, Kevin.

In my experience, all WC shapes either go up, down, in or out. There is no side-to-side motion, because that is like (for lack of a better example) a Karate block. And that would be more about chasing hands...

So a couple of questions, Kev...

1. If the Bong is crossing the centre, what part of the Bong is doing this? The wrist? When does it stop crossing the centre? When the elbow is pointed at you opponent's COM (centre of mass)?

2. I would assume that just because the bong is going to the 'side,' it is going forwards as well as to 'pin' the arm and push on the opponent's COM, while stepping in and firing overtop with the other hand. Is this right?

Good disco,
Kenton

[k gledhill]

the bong is a sharp start >stop<back to lower elbow....the shaving hands we do in SLT are a drill to exchange and replace hands in sequential attacking , replacing vu sao ...bong elbow drops as the rear hand 'shaves' its way along our arm clearing and sweeping the attack-line as it does...this allows no think line of entry .
bong is only if the arm 'space' is x'ed over , no contact is required to feel anything until 'contact' then the results are ..just hit through, use a interrupted follow strike to jut....

the fingertips of your bong 'touch' the bicep of your partner ie your that close and drilling each other..if your partners striking action you are deflecting moves sideways , he/she is using wrist force not elbow /pec contraction control energy...remember the drill is to develop our striking techniques and the dual action in each strike tan/jum ...the bong is to recover the attack for the rear hand ...we always fight one lead one rear, this is what makes the chi-sao drill redundant to fighting with 2 hands extended , rolling etc..facing square .. many simply dont know the connection and ...sticky hands ensues... you spilled my beer sucka I challenge you to a roll off !!!

the elbow height /arm height of bong is relevant to the line you come at me at the time I come at you. the idea is constant , but the fractions of position and timing are yours to play with...if the bong functions it will displace for your following attack hand .

in chisao we adopt a level upper arm the fingers pointing to the partners bicep and using the slanting forearm as the surface to connect..the action is similar to other lateral techniques , pak sao , the elbow leaving the line while striking with tan sao, and the elbow coming to the center , jum sao...all combine to attack one flank and keep the line closed as it attacks along the given positions..attacking being the key word. The system teaches the ability to sustain an unbroken attacking assault, either side ergo symmetrical SLT facing with angling of CK to function, BG to recover the Bubble idea... or groups fighting /chasing hands allowed.

Bong doesn't go forwards it is a constant angle like your guy in the clips a constant 125 degrees inside the elbow ...bong is an interrupted punch not a way to start the fight but to recover the attacking idea..that ideally should be your lead...strike arm x'ed bong strike again .

it doesn't try to become an elbow climb over strike , thats chi-sao head thinking ..imagine doing that to an isolated flanked arm ?using ballistic or fluid action it moves force before it to clear a shot for the following hand, simple. there are alot of redundant ideas used due to sticky hands thinking .

we can go forwards without giving forwards force, a counter platform to our arm, because the action is redirecting it past our ears 'so to speak' as we enter on you striking either side..if I attack with forwards deflection its 'meeting ' force with force ...if I meet force with no force but a 'please go this way' while I go straight hitting the space I made I dont ever meet force with my structure...


The chi-sao is this idea of meeting a line of force .."hello force" and without thinking redirect it as you go on your way attacking the person delivering it at you...the integrity and angles [slt] of our arms is paramount and the simultaneous deflections with strikes a major part of the attacking idea...using 1 arm at a time along the attack line ergo tan [outside of arm] followed or vive versa , jum sao[inside of arm] each striking attacks that develop 2 forces delvered by structured alignmnet of our attack....so either arm is both diplacing an arm [if required] and trading places with the other arm trained to do the same thing but with the inside of the arm as it strikes ....you cant guess this idea you have to be shown , hands on..subtle but will change your view on a lot of things .

when you drop your bong you strike with the other hand [fok sao] if the strike is thwarted [ good word !] you use fook to be neutral and recover your elbow and hand one the line [ developing your ability for free fighting ] not to be better a sticky fighting.

the sequence you do in chi -sao ingrains this thinking: bong up, elbow drops, to tan strike ,other hand strikes using jum sao .

the bong speed to stop should lift your shirt sleeve off the arm.

one arm is doing tan striking , the other jums triking , while facing to develop equal ability to strike and function each side...then add the tactical direction using stepping in and angling offside to the given line of entering force ...we only keep 2 hands extended so each can use as 'points' to face etc... in a real exchange the hands are always lead [man] rear [ vu] always .

the drills can become fluid and seem to be sticky at the wrists, but this leads to a completly different outcome of development , detached from a tactical technique development to ....allow you to be able to attack without thinking using the chi-sao as a simple ingraining method to deliver simple attack sequences int he face of a arm in the way...the simplest thing is to know where to be and how to strike, the bong is only if that strike was 'x'ed' over ....the majority of our actions are to simply strike
and clear the lead space to strike and repeat to over whleming levels at high speed changing sides seamlessly if the guy turns across our line before us , we just face and fire , attacking as the defense.
using lin sil di dar...thinking

ifyou want to trap use a lan , bong turns to lan, dont use bong or you develop another bong idea .

[couch]

...the simplest thing is to know where to be and how to strike the bong is only if that strike was 'x'ed' over ....

I ACTUALLY think I'm getting what you're saying!
Thanks, gents.

[k gledhill]

in knives the bong/knife is used to simply present an edge to a swing coming at you rather than
deflection..this misused would lead some to meet a punch with 2 arms while stepping away from the attacker 'chasing ' the hand with 2 hands...the step adopted to simply get safe space from an axe wielding murderer
the bare hands x the line while using intersecting X cutting lines.

[couch]

in knives the bong/knife is used to simply present an edge to a swing coming at you rather than
deflection..this misused would lead some to meet a punch with 2 arms while stepping away from the attacker 'chasing ' the hand with 2 hands...the step adopted to simply get safe space from an axe wielding murderer
the bare hands x the line while using intersecting X cutting lines.

I am sure that if it were in 'olden' times, using the knives would have the similar concept as Filipino stickfighting of today: hit the hand holding the weapon. At least that's how I deal with knife vs. knife and knife vs. pole attack/defense. If a knife is used, as you said, present an edge, that's all that's needed.

Regarding the crossing of the line with the knives...I've always wondered about that, too. I don't practice my form with all these crossing motions...it makes me feel uncomfortable to have the blade moving on the inside of my arm without first opening everything up...such as in repeated Kwan Sau with the swords. Too much complication happens, IMO. If the bare hands system is as simple as HIT, then the knives should be as simple as CUT.

[k gledhill]

it is, strike the nearest weapon to nearest available target...chop hand /wrist forearm...

it is simple like a punch is simply a punch , until you learn VT then it is no longer a simple punch until you train to ingrain it until it is just a 'simple' punch again...takes time but the end is worth it. If you do sticky wrist chi-sao then you wont ever develop 'it'.