All these movements are the same

[Sal Canzonieri]

the same movement taught to different people with varied backrounds and experiences will then develop and evolve into different methodolgies/systems/tactics. Whatis intersting is seeing the source, and then the separate evolutions of the individual styles. Witness Fukien/Hakka styles, White Crane/Southern Mantis/Wing Chun/Ngo Cho etc.

Exactly! that's how there is evolution in CMA occurs.
Eventually they look different enough on the surface that people can't see how they are once of the same origin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ok - looked at your vids on that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zI7DNKsoU
starting ~:43, he goes into Needling Sea Bottom (and actually gets into it very much how we do, which is different from all other versions of the form I've seen, with the "extra' crossing of the hands before going into the downward move w/the right hand), to Opening Three Gates, and turns and does the series of moves very similarly to us - very interesting! I will have to take some time to look at it in more detail, should be very interesting...


as far as why the Yang is so different from Chen - that has been a question on my mind for a long time; obviously I am not versed in the Shaolin arts as you are so have not been able to compare accordingly; however, one thing has struck me about the 3rd "chapter" of the Yang form, which is that there are elements that seem very different from the rest of the form, and also the way the are organized, like Wild Horse, Jade Maiden - sort of just "thrown" in with Lan Zat Yi's seperating them - like they were single techniques from somewhere else that he just added on (I also wonder to what extent they were influenced by his contact w/Dong Hai Chuan - who, my sifu believes probably was a far superior fighter to Yang...)


my teacher is Master Sat Chuen Hon; his teacher was Master Ham King Koo; Master Koo's teacher was someone by the name of Yang Zai Teng (my transliteration may be way off), who was some sort of Beijing court official who was evidently rather scholarly and all that, who studied with YLC directly (at least that's the story as I know it); Master Koo was very young when he studied w/Master Teng (1910, I bellieve), who was very old at the time; Maser Koo was in his 70's when my sifu met him (somewhere in the mid- or early 1970's) and passed away in 1999 at the age of 95.
http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html
Master Koo was also very good friend w/Master Tung Ying Jieh, and in fact we do a version of the Tung fast form that is "flavored" a bit differently; there are also some elements in our long form that seem to have been absorbed by Master Koo from Tung as well;
you might have read Master Hon's article on his personal research on the Daoist Alchemical roots of taiji in the Winter 07-08 issue of Qi? if not, it may be of interest to you; if so, I am curious about your opinion (even if you do not agree w/his perspective, that's fine, I'd be interested why not)

again, thank you very much for your assistance and in depth research!

Please look at this Shaolin Rou Quan 36 set, this is the main one that was absorbed by Tai Ji - Yang was shown the Soft Hands and that's why his stuff was different than Chen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJYVYgu_s

Look at my website and look at the comparison chart I give for the TJQ and Shaolin and Tongbei sets. You can see exactly what is going on in that part of the Yang Set that you are questioning: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMA...risonChart.htm

So, this is the Beijing imperial guards style of Yang TJQ, they do many more sets than the other Yang TJQ styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, Yue Fei is also reputed to be the founder, or one of the developers of Hsing-Yi Ch'uan. The movement you describe in your opening post also appears in some Hung Kuen sets as well. In our Moi-Fa, the movement is beggar;s hands into double Tiger claw, one striking forward, the other either pushing or pulling (depending on how youplay) by the elbow-similar to pek kuen.
Could yuor reference and connections made to 'Great Ancestor" also explain Ancestral Crane Boxing as well? They also use the SamJien, and Fukien White Crane systems seem to be the root perhaps in many Hakka systems.

As far as the Yang Tai Chi-I have always preferred Yang Family to Chen due to the any similarities it has with my own Hung-Ga, which is also Shaolin-based.Look at Brush Knee and Push, Push, White Crane Spreads its Wings, Shoulder Strike, Fair Lady works the Shuttle, Diagonal Flying, etc-all Siu-Lum (Shaolin) Hung Kuen.
The Shaolin/Tai=Chi connection has been mentioned before. In some versions, A General Jiang is said to have trained in Shaolin and may have also then gone to Chen Village. Yang Lu-Chuan was said to have been a Shaolin practitioner who then went to Chen village as well. It would stand to reason as Yang's Tai-Chi shows more similarities to Shaolin than Chen.

All are drawing from the same Shaolin long fist sources.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Royal;

Found the first move of TZ Chang Quan in the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou,
"scooping moon from bottom of sea", it is called Lu Shou, "plucking hand" and it is used to enter into their Guarding position, same as it is used in TZ Chang Quan set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Eric Horgrove;

I have a copy of ancient book of original 8 rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou.

Email me and I will show you where you can get it online, Plumflower has it!

It's a must have item in your research!

All in Chinese though, with tons of info, and hand illustrated for each posture.

[mawali]

Sal,

Hi - I am trying to follow your exegesis here - if I understand correctly, you are trying to discern Shaolin-based roots of taijiquan? or is that an oversimplification / am I missing something else?

You mention Tong Bei: this particular vid here always struck me as salient: http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

any input is appreciated; sorry if I am way behind the learning curve on your line of inquiry...

thanks

Chris

Excellent point!
Perhaps when the folk Chen village encountered this tongbei variant, they saw a way to integrate the basics (or what they saw as such) and got rid of 'unnecessary' hand flailing? too flowerey movements (at least shortened them) and lowered the stance(s).
The more astute the practitioner, the more they could extract and delete parts os a form to fit their own system! Just look at the finished Chen family style and how it engendered the many variants today.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren't correct:

I've been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

[cjurakpt]

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

I thought that was obvious...

[Sal Canzonieri]

I thought that was obvious...

Guess not to some people, I am very tired of people that know absolutely nothing about me, how I trained for decades EVERY DAY for 7 days a week, and actually learned the sets that I write about.
I wouldn't be able to say I think something is related to something else if I didn't know the sets I was comparing in and out.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Excellent point!
Perhaps when the folk Chen village encountered this tongbei variant, they saw a way to integrate the basics (or what they saw as such) and got rid of 'unnecessary' hand flailing? too flowerey movements (at least shortened them) and lowered the stance(s).
The more astute the practitioner, the more they could extract and delete parts os a form to fit their own system! Just look at the finished Chen family style and how it engendered the many variants today.

This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.

Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?

Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben's was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.

And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.

Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: "tai zu nan tang" instead.

Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it's theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.

[Shaolin Master]

Yes that Yue Fei, it wasn't him necessarily, it was his troops, which is why that style is called Yue Jia, Yue Family Boxing.

They have five elements, 6 harmonies, 10 (12) animals, etc., 6 harmony spear, etc.

Yue Fei being the grand ancestor would make a LOT more sense as this is the second wave of hakka, the ones that came south after the Northern song was defeated.

(the Zhao clan's movement to other parts of china is known, its not the same as this wave of Hakka emigration.)

Sal,

Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei's descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation....

Cheers
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Royal Gian;

First 8 Rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou = first half of Tai Zu Chang Quan!

First 1 in both are different except they have the same salute with embracing movements.

Next 2-4 rows in Yue Shi maps to 2 - 7 postures in TZ

next 5-8 rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou maps to 13-19 in TZ.

(it skips the same moves 8-12 that Tai Ji skips from TZ Chang Quan!)

Which means, using my chart I can map out the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to Chen Tai Ji Yi Lu and to Shaolin Rou Quan and to Tong Bei.

Wonder what is going on here?

I'll check out the second series of 8 and see if they match the rest of the TZ Chang Quan set!

Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.

As per the history of Bafanquan....http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html

The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA

The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences....

regards,
Wu Chanlong

additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo

[Royal Dragon]

This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.

Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?

Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben's was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.

And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.

Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: "tai zu nan tang" instead.

Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it's theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.

Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thoought provoking questions:

One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?

Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, *IF* it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?

Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period's Tong bei and not really a new style?

Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it's creation than we think?

Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?


Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn't invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?

In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it's just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more...so it got named after him.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei's descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation....

Cheers
Wu Chanlong

I know that there is the Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.

Scattered in Henan and other provinces there are also other styles called Yue Jia Quan or very similar names that come from other people that claim that their style comes from troops of Yue Fei, such as Niu family in Henan.
The material of these styles is not too different from Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.
Some are a lot different.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.

As per the history of Bafanquan....http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html

The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA

The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences....

regards,
Wu Chanlong

additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo

The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou I am referring to comes from the generation before Liu Dekuan, such as Liu Shijun, its from a different student of Liu Shijun rather than Liu Dekuan.

Also, I have a copy of manual that shows the first 8 rows of this Yue Shi Ba fan Shou.

Eagle claw as it is done today changed it a lot.

Also, it looks similar to but not exactly like the Ba Fan Quan sets in those two video links.