All these movements are the same

[Sal Canzonieri]

There is a major movement/posture that seems to be in common, with slight variation (due to chronological and stylistic evolution), between all the following styles (in Chronological order):

Tong Bei Quan: Pi Shan Zhang - Split Mountain Palm
Shaolin Chan Yuan: Li Pi Hua Shan - Forcibily Split Hua Mountain
Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong: Lao Seng Pi Chai - Old Monk Splits Wood
Shaolin Yuan Hou Quan (Ape Monkey Fist): Shrink body Double Acknowledge Fingers - Su Shen Shang Ren Zhi
Shaolin Rou Quan 36: Turn Body Right, Plundering / Intercepting Hand - Zhuan Shen You Lu / Lan Shou
Yue Jia Quan and XY: Splitting Fist - Pi Quan
Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou - Strike Side Face Palm - Pu Mian Zhang
Hua Quan 18 Luohan: Ying Qia Suo - Eagle Seizes Gullet
Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan: Turn Face Right, Pulling Hand - Zhuan Lian You, Ban Shou
Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan: Turn Right, Face To Face Pulling Hand - Ying-Mian Ban
Chen TJQ Yi Lu: Lazy (Block) Tying Coat - Lan Zha Yi
Yang TJQ: Grasp Sparrow's Tail.

All these sets do this movement near their beginning as they turn to the right.

MOST of these sets follow it up that above movement with a variation of "Single Whip" and most of them call that next move "Single Whip" even if it looks different.

[Royal Dragon]

Is "face to face, pull hand single whip?"

[Sal Canzonieri]

Is "face to face, pull hand single whip?"

No, it is the face slap thing that happens as the second movement in the 32.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Royal, I have been learning the Yue Shi Ba Fan shou sets from a friend.

I have been able to find most of the TZ 32 in it, very easily, and some Lao Hong quan. The rest of 5 elements quan.

Very weird!

[Royal Dragon]

What is Yue Shi Ba Fan shou?

[Sal Canzonieri]

What is Yue Shi Ba Fan shou?

Watch these videos of this form (these are videos of the first section of 8 rows, there are 3 sections of 8 rows in total):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63rIaKKXX8
(this guy does with too fast with no whole body movement, but you can get the idea, if you slow it down and do the movements clearer it is obvious they are all also seen in TZ Chang Quan 32 and especially in the Lao Hong Quan 108.)

This guy does it better but too external

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtU2IauK9KQ

[Royal Dragon]

This guy does it better but too external

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtU2IauK9KQ

Reply]
External? Look again, watch his back and spine as he moves. This guy is about as internal as it gets. He has good open and close, one thing moves, everything moves, one thing stops everything stops. His power is derived form the core on every move, even when he just walks or stands there. Short of adding some spiraling and silk reeling type stuff, you just don't see internal this good too often. I think you are just not seeing it because of the white uniform, but look really close and it is clearly internal motion all the way.

As for the first set I see a number of things commonly found in the Southern Tai jow "Four Corners" form. I found that to be interesting..

[Royal Dragon]

[EDIT] - Ok, never mind. I see what you mean.

I looked at the rest of his clips and he is remarkably disconnected when he does his taiji like stuff. He's wiggling around his body but with no apparent connection to the move he is doing in many places. He looks much better in the first clip though. Maybe is his being too explosive to add all the none necessary stuff in.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yue Jia Quan is basically a southern Hakka style, it has an important form called San Men Quan. 3 gates fist.

I've been looking at all my resources that have this set, and I am having a hunching from what I see, that THIS style is what Southern Tai Zu is based on!
Yue Jia Quan's 3 Gates Fist is not much different from 3 Battles Fist.

I bet the Hakka grand ancestor was referring all along to their actual real southern song Grand Ancestor who is a hakka too: Yue Fei ! He's the grand ancestor in honor, not Zhao Kuan Yin, and it really fits prefectly with the correct time period when the hakka last wave came down into the south.

[Sal Canzonieri]

eric hargrove;

Hi, can you tell me where to find any other vcds of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou, besides the Shanxi 24 row one that is easy to find?

thanks!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Royal Gian;

First 8 Rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou = first half of Tai Zu Chang Quan!

First 1 in both are different except they have the same salute with embracing movements.

Next 2-4 rows in Yue Shi maps to 2 - 7 postures in TZ

next 5-8 rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou maps to 13-19 in TZ.

(it skips the same moves 8-12 that Tai Ji skips from TZ Chang Quan!)

Which means, using my chart I can map out the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to Chen Tai Ji Yi Lu and to Shaolin Rou Quan and to Tong Bei.

Wonder what is going on here?

I'll check out the second series of 8 and see if they match the rest of the TZ Chang Quan set!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe this will give us a glimpse of the 2nd and 3rd roads of the 32?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yue Jia Quan is basically a southern Hakka style, it has an important form called San Men Quan. 3 gates fist.

I've been looking at all my resources that have this set, and I am having a hunching from what I see, that THIS style is what Southern Tai Zu is based on!
Yue Jia Quan's 3 Gates Fist is not much different from 3 Battles Fist.

I bet the Hakka grand ancestor was referring all along to their actual real southern song Grand Ancestor who is a hakka too: Yue Fei ! He's the grand ancestor in honor, not Zhao Kuan Yin, and it really fits prefectly with the correct time period when the hakka last wave came down into the south.

Reply]
Do you mean *The* Yue Fei? The one associated with the Southern Songs military and Eagle Claw? That would explain the oral legends of Southern Tai Jow originally being basic military training too then!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Maybe this will give us a glimpse of the 2nd and 3rd roads of the 32?

No , not what I am seeing, the rest of the rows follows the same path as ta ji quan yi lu set, which mostly follows tai zu chang 32, but the movements that are not really seen in the TZ set are seen both here in the Ba fan shou sets and the tai ji quan yi lu set.

That I am finding very strange, wonder what it means?
Both are drawing from the same source?

Or the TZ 32 set originally had those moves that are seen in these 2 other sets?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Reply]
Do you mean *The* Yue Fei? The one associated with the Southern Songs military and Eagle Claw? That would explain the oral legends of Southern Tai Jow originally being basic military training too then!

Yes that Yue Fei, it wasn't him necessarily, it was his troops, which is why that style is called Yue Jia, Yue Family Boxing.

They have five elements, 6 harmonies, 10 (12) animals, etc., 6 harmony spear, etc.

Yue Fei being the grand ancestor would make a LOT more sense as this is the second wave of hakka, the ones that came south after the Northern song was defeated.

(the Zhao clan's movement to other parts of china is known, its not the same as this wave of Hakka emigration.)