Grappling/Takedown Chi sao

[HardWork8]

Interesting comments on Wing Chun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcqOQ...eature=related



Grappling/takedown chi sao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcsb...eature=related


PS. Sorry if they have been posted before.

[anerlich]

The first guy sounds like a good teacher, and appears to have decent short power.

I've seen several KF teachers show that figure 4 takedown application, including my own WC instructor and William Cheung. The kimura from top is generally taught with the knee in front of the face on the floor, not up like in the video, because the knee up offers more opportunity to escape, and the knee down can also be used to trap the other arm with the shin or behind the crook of the knee and prevent interference with the lock.

Otherwise the lock was technically correct. It is a basic technique taught to BJJ white belts.

The guy has skills, but no particularly unusual techniques.

[HardWork8]

The first guy sounds like a good teacher, and appears to have decent short power.

The first guy and the second guy are the same people.

[HardWork8]

This is why all this quasi kung fu groundfighting that they half @$$ ripped off from bjj is ineffective.

Kung fu had ground fighting centuries before bjj was invented!

this shaolin wing chun phonyjutsu does poorly in control. But without control and position, on a resisting opponent there is no submission...

Actually as far as I am aware the sifu in the video is not an exponent of the Shaolin (siulam) lineage of Wing Chun.

At least this guy wasn't THAT bad. Now hyena man from the last clip...yeah that was craptacular in craptastic proportions...

Well, thank you for that "expert" comment. I am sure your McKwoon sifus will be proud of you for that one.

[HardWork8]

Anyway, you have made your comment on the clips provided and thank you for your insight. Please allow others to comment without hijacking this thread. If you have personal issues with me then take it to the thread provided.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Anerlich is correct: William Cheung has taught the standing figure 4 armlock to a sweep takedown - against a knife or a stick attack that's being launched at you from a 3/4 overhand direction/angle.

Not a bad move. It's do-able if you get to jam the attack before he gets a chance to extend his arm.

BUT COMING OUT OF CHI SAO?

I don't get that at all

Because now we're assuming an empty hand scenario.

The chances of getting that lock (and then on to the takedown) during an empty hand striking/grabbing exchange are slim-to-none. He won't be putting such a commitment into the one "deadly" strike if he has no weapon - and then surely his other hand will be coming into play in a heartbeat - and therefore in all probability in time to nullify the attempt at a two-arms-on-one-arm lock.

Not realistic at all.

[HardWork8]

Anerlich is correct: William Cheung has taught the standing figure 4 armlock to a sweep takedown - against a knife or a stick attack that's being launched at you from a 3/4 overhand direction/angle.

Not a bad move. It's do-able if you get to jam the attack before he gets a chance to extend his arm.

BUT COMING OUT OF CHI SAO?

I don't get that at all

Because now we're assuming an empty hand scenario.

The chances of getting that lock (and then on to the takedown) during an empty hand striking/grabbing exchange are slim-to-none. He won't be putting such a commitment into the one "deadly" strike if he has no weapon - and then surely his other hand will be coming into play in a heartbeat - and therefore in all probability in time to nullify the attempt at a two-arms-on-one-arm lock.

Not realistic at all.

The technique shown in that clip is just one example of a grappling technique that one can use off the chi sao. I believe that this type of chi sao training is useful as it familiarizes the practitioners with stand up grappling scenarios and the various techniques and possibilities involving the use of chi-na techniques.

[cjurakpt]

Anerlich is correct: William Cheung has taught the standing figure 4 armlock to a sweep takedown - against a knife or a stick attack that's being launched at you from a 3/4 overhand direction/angle.

Not a bad move. It's do-able if you get to jam the attack before he gets a chance to extend his arm.

BUT COMING OUT OF CHI SAO?

I don't get that at all

Because now we're assuming an empty hand scenario.

The chances of getting that lock (and then on to the takedown) during an empty hand striking/grabbing exchange are slim-to-none. He won't be putting such a commitment into the one "deadly" strike if he has no weapon - and then surely his other hand will be coming into play in a heartbeat - and therefore in all probability in time to nullify the attempt at a two-arms-on-one-arm lock.

Not realistic at all.

especially based on the biomechanics: you have to take the guys arm which is already internally rotated at the shoulder past neutral, and fight against his strong flexor muscles to derotate his arm - you might be able to do it, but not without a struggle; actually, what would happen probably even if you managed to do that, he could easily step around to follow w/the other side leg while dropping his elbow; and finally, hello, he's got his other hand free! notice how his left hand instinctively went to the instructor's right shoulder? he could use that contact as a counterbalance to neutralize the technique; or he could go to the guy's right elbow to neutralize the lever generated by that arm; or he could just blast the guy in the head! I mean, the instructor is turning his back to the guy's free arm while he's using both hands on the other! odds are, he's going to get nailed...

[anerlich]

The first guy and the second guy are the same people.

Oh ... he changed his hair I guess ... I was looking at the tech, not his face.

Kung fu had ground fighting centuries before bjj was invented!

And so did the Japanese, upon whose arts BJJ is based.

I recommend "Mastering JuJitsu by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher for an excellent summary of Ju Jitsu history going back to at least the 12th century. Also wrestling is the oldest documented art in the world.

Of course, the age of a discipline or tradition has only an incidental relationship with its effectiveness.

or he could just blast the guy in the head!

I noticed that too, but you could say the same about a number of judo throws and other takedowns as well. One thing to be able to nail the guy with a left hook at demo speed, another to do it while he's actually trying to take you down full speed.

That said, I think getting control of at least two points of his body before a takedown would be higher percentage. With a weapon? Maybe the two on one strategy would give better control of the weapon.

[SoCo KungFu]

That said, I think getting control of at least two points of his body before a takedown would be higher percentage.

This might sound condescending but its not meant that way or its just a stupid question. I don't actually practice judo...

but isn't that the general idea in most of the judo techniques? From what I've seen it just seems that way.

Actually I think I remember reading somewhere, the author said that typically the first to secure two grips is typically going to be the one to obtain dominant leverage and land the throw in turn gaining dominant positioning and in more times than not winning the match.

[lkfmdc]

Most submission based systems stress POSITION before submission, ie you must imobilize the person or at least reduce mobility....

[SoCo KungFu]

Most submission based systems stress POSITION before submission, ie you must imobilize the person or at least reduce mobility....

Yeah I hear that at least once a night. I still gotta work on being more patient with the technique.

But that's also something that I see a lot of with kung fu in general in regards to trying to adapt a ground game. Its the same situation that was in those clips posted a while back. No body control, no position. And why I posted this earlier...

this shaolin wing chun phonyjutsu does poorly in control. But without control and position, on a resisting opponent there is no submission...

Am I guilty of it too? Yeah I'm the first to admit. Afterall I'm still dealing with months on the ground as opposed to years. Learning techniques are one thing...fighting habits is another....

[lkfmdc]

But that's also something that I see a lot of with kung fu in general in regards to trying to adapt a ground game.

Does TCMA have ground FIGHTING? YES. You see "deih tong/di tang", and other forms where throws, trips, falling, rolling, scissors, kicks from the ground, kip ups, spin ups, etc are used

Within the TCMA mindset, the idea was to prevent a standing opponent from stomping on you (or killing you with a weapon) and/or getting back to your feet pretty quickly.

It is NOT a coincidence that this is how classical Japanese Jiu Jitsu used to address the issue, when classical Japanese Jiu Jitsu was used by bushi for purposes of warfare primarily

The idea of ground GRAPPLING is very different and a feature of late 19th/early 20th century developments, civilians engaging in "self defense" and matters of honor (dueling)

TCMA is just now catching up to this, often too proud to just admit they are behind teh curve

[monji112000]

Most submission based systems stress POSITION before submission, ie you must imobilize the person or at least reduce mobility....

immobilizing... you mean like trapping and cover, making sure you are "safe". Hmm that sounds like BS kung fu garbage to me..

I haven't really tried this out, but my ideas on adding takedowns and clinching would be..

classic positions like pak or any position were you would strike the head and controle.. feed into a thai clinch..which feeds into pummeling ect..

also a few positions exist were you pushing the arm and jam in with a body or head shot, this can be replaced with pushing the arm into a duck under ect..

honesty so many examples could be created were you can do arm drags, leg trips, 50/50 stuff.. into no gi throws or whatever.. its really not that hard to start doing it.

I remmber a conversation with my sifu about watching someone do a hip throw from chi sao, I said thats completly wrong and "not wing chun". He was happy to point out how I know nothing and if its setup without putting yourself in harms way.. and its very much "wing chung".

Its not "wing chun" movements, but it fitting something else into chi sao that follows the "wing chun" mentality.

again I haven't played with allot of these ideas that much but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do it Just two people who understand both ideas .. then start playing with them.

JMO GFY if you don't like it.

[anerlich]

This might sound condescending but its not meant that way or its just a stupid question. I don't actually practice judo...

but isn't that the general idea in most of the judo techniques? From what I've seen it just seems that way.

Well, yeah. That's why I said it.

I don't practice judo either. But my BJJ class does have a 6th dan judoka who teaches us throws and the like.