Grappling/Takedown Chi sao

[Edmund]

The chances of getting that lock (and then on to the takedown) during an empty hand striking/grabbing exchange are slim-to-none. He won't be putting such a commitment into the one "deadly" strike if he has no weapon - and then surely his other hand will be coming into play in a heartbeat - and therefore in all probability in time to nullify the attempt at a two-arms-on-one-arm lock.

That's the inherent problem with that technique. It needs some tweaking.

Probably safer to try a waki gatame.

[HardWork8]

Some interesting points and thank you.

In Siu Lam Wing Chun this grappling (kum Na) chi sao is pretty flexible. The intention is to use any effective lock or Chi-na technique to take down or stop your opponent. This may even include grabbing available finger of your opponent to twist and control him or even to take him down.

I believe that this training will enable the practitioner to incorporate and understand stand up grappling within a Wing Chun framework.

Of course this type of Chi sao is incorporated within the striking chi sao that we all know and love. Then it becomes an "anything goes" chi sao where you can be hit or be grappled/Chinna-ed. It is worth adding that at this stage the chi sao is mobile and not stationary.

[Ali. R]

Some interesting points and thank you.

In Siu Lam Wing Chun this grappling (kum Na) chi sao is pretty flexible. The intention is to use any effective lock or Chi-na technique to take down or stop your opponent. This may even include grabbing available finger of your opponent to twist and control him or even to take him down.

I believe that this training will enable the practitioner to incorporate and understand stand up grappling within a Wing Chun framework.

Of course this type of Chi sao is incorporated within the striking chi sao that we all know and love. Then it becomes an "anything goes" chi sao where you can be hit or be grappled/Chinna-ed. It is worth adding that at this stage the chi sao is mobile and not stationary.

That’s interesting stuff you have there because most systems that I heard of don’t use their wing chun /chin na as locks, but some and my wing chun system uses our chin na more on a breaking (fingers wrist and arms) aspect, rather then stopping and controlling the limbs…

The techniques works with very little use of the hands if at all, but putting it more in simple terms, we would rather break then control when using our chin na, to keep the tension within the hands at a very low percentage… It's really nothing special; it’s just what we do…

It will start off like chin na but, will end with a break…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Like this technique; when I laid my hand over his with very little tension in the fingers, almost like a light press, or I would never have that continuation of flow to move on with control…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZmOpCgV9o


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

That’s interesting stuff you have there because most systems that I heard of don’t use their wing chun /chin na as locks, but some and my wing chun system uses our chin na more on a breaking (fingers wrist and arms) aspect, rather then stopping and controlling the limbs…

I suppose that it will depend on the situation as well. Sometimes the intention will be to control and at other times the intention would be to break. Other times it is purely a takedown technique which in some cases continues on the ground as this lineage of Wing Chun trains ground fighting as well (using Wing Chun principles and concepts).

… It is really nothing special; it’s just what we do…

But I bet it works.

[HardWork8]

Like this technique; when I laid my hand over his with very little tension in the fingers, almost like a light press, or I would never have that continuation of flow to move on with control…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZmOpCgV9o


Ali Rahim.

Thanks, great clip. You are right, it seems that correct relaxation opens the door to varied possibilities.

The all important continuation of flow is something that seems to be lacking at some Wing Chun schools I have come across. Sometimes unnecessary tension is added to the limbs and this isolates the movements thus sacrificing flow for some perceived gain in power.

Great Wing Chun.

[Ali. R]

Hey thanks,

When the chin na/ breaks are done correctly even in training you will steal your opponents breath, and his whole body will go limp, just watch his wrist and that will tell the whole story…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZmOpCgV9o

In that case for me, I have no need to control, I’ll just become poetic with punches...


Ali Rahim.

[monji112000]

The first guy sounds like a good teacher, and appears to have decent short power.

I've seen several KF teachers show that figure 4 takedown application, including my own WC instructor and William Cheung. The kimura from top is generally taught with the knee in front of the face on the floor, not up like in the video, because the knee up offers more opportunity to escape, and the knee down can also be used to trap the other arm with the shin or behind the crook of the knee and prevent interference with the lock.

Otherwise the lock was technically correct. It is a basic technique taught to BJJ white belts.

The guy has skills, but no particularly unusual techniques.

are you talking about the second clip? I would be willing to bet money that the takedown would only work on a half dead person. Or as lkfmdc says he needs to have no pulse...

that situation would work better with a gua sao and a duck under .. into many other things.

JMO what do I know..

[t_niehoff]

I would be willing to bet money that the takedown would only work on a half dead person. Or as lkfmdc says he needs to have no pulse...

JMO what do I know..

Of course no one would be able to pull that off against a genuinely resisting opponent. And that's true of so much that is fobbed off as "application" in WCK and the TCMAs. You have people teaching stuff (nonsense) that THEY have never successfully (let alone regularly and consistently) used in fighting/sparring. Then this stuff gets passed down ("transmitted") by the followers of the people who teach this nonsense. It's the blind leading the blind.

My question is do the people teaching "applications" like this know/understand that it is fantasy nonsense? If so, then what does it say about them that they teach to intentionally mislead their followers? If they don't know/understand (which I think most likely), should they really be teaching in the first place?

[hunt1]

My question is do the people teaching "applications" like this know/understand that it is fantasy nonsense? If so, then what does it say about them that they teach to intentionally mislead their followers? If they don't know/understand (which I think most likely), should they really be teaching in the first place?


You only know if you have paid the price to know in blood , injuries, hard smacks to the face , slams to the ground etc. Since most haven't paid the price they believe that what they are teaching is real.

The price is not paid by training with students or fellow classmates etc. Only with someone that wants to prove in no uncertain terms they are better than you can the price be paid over and over again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

First of all, it is a demo and as such, must be take with a grain of salt, as all demos are.
But...

The price is not paid by training with students or fellow classmates etc. Only with someone that wants to prove in no uncertain terms they are better than you can the price be paid over and over again.

Very well said.

[t_niehoff]

First of all, it is a demo and as such, must be take with a grain of salt, as all demos are.

I don't buy this excuse (though I've heard it before).

Why would anyone demo something that simply can't and won't work? Why demo fantasy? If you want to demo your martial art, demo what you can and will do, not what you can't. All that these sorts of demos prove is that the demonstrator doesn't really grasp reality.

[lkfmdc]

A student of the person in the second clip has said that they are aware the technique is being done wrong.... or, rather, they said "well, that is from 1994 so it is a bit old"

To me, this seems to say "we were trying to incorporate some stuff we didn't really understand very well into what we were doing"

CROSS TRAINING IS ADMIRABLE.... ie go out and find a BJJ, Judo, Sambo or wrestling coach and learn the techniques correctly

Do NOT try and "wing it", doing the technique incorrectly and then passing it on to students that way....

Or, worst of all, try and tell people it has been part of Wing Chun all along

[CFT]

Why would anyone demo something that simply can't and won't work? Why demo fantasy? If you want to demo your martial art, demo what you can and will do, not what you can't. All that these sorts of demos prove is that the demonstrator doesn't really grasp reality.

Surely this depends on the audience for the demo? If it is just for 'entertainment' then you want the techniques to be clearly demonstrated and crisp which really can only be done with compliance or prior choreography and practice (for demo only). Otherwise with real intent and resistance it will just look messy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't buy this excuse (though I've heard it before).

Why would anyone demo something that simply can't and won't work? Why demo fantasy? If you want to demo your martial art, demo what you can and will do, not what you can't. All that these sorts of demos prove is that the demonstrator doesn't really grasp reality.

I tend to see it not as the technique doesn't work, but that it doesn't work as it is demoed, which is the case of most demos not done in a "full contact" mode.
Heck, we know that the "key lock", or "americana", or whatever name you choose to use, works well, perhaps not the way it is applied here, but the technique is a vlaid one.
IF the demo was at full speed and pace and he pulled it off, we would not have as MANY issues with it as we do now.

This is why I always advocate that, when demoing a technique one should follow the ways of the DBMA - see it taught, see it fought.