Grappling/Takedown Chi sao

[t_niehoff]

Surely this depends on the audience for the demo? If it is just for 'entertainment' then you want the techniques to be clearly demonstrated and crisp which really can only be done with compliance or prior choreography and practice (for demo only). Otherwise with real intent and resistance it will just look messy.

If by entertainment you mean "theatrical" spectacle, like movies, that's a horse of a different color.

What I am talking about is demo'ing your martial art to show others how your art works. You can't demo how your art works by showing things that can't and won't work. Yes, you can slow things down, you can make them more cooperative, to make things more clear to an audience -- but those things need to be things that actually will (and HAVE) work (which, of course, you can only know from experience -- doing them regularly and consistently in sparring/fighting).

[t_niehoff]

I tend to see it not as the technique doesn't work, but that it doesn't work as it is demoed, which is the case of most demos not done in a "full contact" mode.
Heck, we know that the "key lock", or "americana", or whatever name you choose to use, works well, perhaps not the way it is applied here, but the technique is a vlaid one.
IF the demo was at full speed and pace and he pulled it off, we would not have as MANY issues with it as we do now.

This is why I always advocate that, when demoing a technique one should follow the ways of the DBMA - see it taught, see it fought.

You'll never get a standing keylock (particularly not off a strike) against a genuinely resisting opponent. Standing joint locks are so extremely low percentage that we can say they are a waste of time to learn.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You'll never get a standing keylock (particularly not off a strike) against a genuinely resisting opponent. Standing joint locks are so extremely low percentage that we can say they are a waste of time to learn.

Well, never is incorrect, very rarely, yes.
But I woudl agree that a standing key lock, because it is going AGAINST the movement, is not the best one to go for in that situation.
I have always said that, in terms of percentage, you are what you train.
I am sure that if someone trained standing joint locks and drilled them consistently and test them consistently, they could pull them off at a higher rate than most.
Its common sense.
Do people that advocate standing joint locks do that?
The vast majority don't.

[t_niehoff]

A student of the person in the second clip has said that they are aware the technique is being done wrong.... or, rather, they said "well, that is from 1994 so it is a bit old"

To me, this seems to say "we were trying to incorporate some stuff we didn't really understand very well into what we were doing"

I would amend that to read "we were trying to incorporate some stuff we didn't really understand very well into some stuff we didn't really understand very well."

CROSS TRAINING IS ADMIRABLE.... ie go out and find a BJJ, Judo, Sambo or wrestling coach and learn the techniques correctly

The notion of going to someone qualified and really training is outside the experience and interest of most people in TCMAs.

Do NOT try and "wing it", doing the technique incorrectly and then passing it on to students that way....

Or, worst of all, try and tell people it has been part of Wing Chun all along

My view is that in most cases, that's how they've been teaching all along with everything (including their WCK) they "know." Just as they couldn't pass the fantasy test with this key-lock takedown, they couldn't pass the test with most of what they teach.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The notion of going to someone qualified and really training is outside the experience and interest of most people in TCMAs.

If that is the case now, one wonder when it became that way since in the past that was never the case.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This key lock take down is one of the most common one, even used against the over hand vertical knife stab, I am sure everyone has been taught that one.

I learned it in almost every system I have trained in, except Kali because they actual know how to use a knife, but it is very common, even in the military we were taught it.

[lkfmdc]

This key lock take down is one of the most common one, even used against the over hand vertical knife stab, I am sure everyone has been taught that one.

It is a commonly taught tactic, it is also usually taught incorrectly. I remember an article in (not to mess with Gene name of magazine deleted) magazine where they showed that block against a knife, the person with the knife grabbed it with the other hand and sunk the knife into the person's exposed kidney This was back in the early 80's I admit so most probably never saw this article (it was from the Philipines)

That aside, the obvious problem still remains that once on the ground, he applies the lock incorrectly....

[t_niehoff]

Well, never is incorrect, very rarely, yes.
But I woudl agree that a standing key lock, because it is going AGAINST the movement, is not the best one to go for in that situation.
I have always said that, in terms of percentage, you are what you train.
I am sure that if someone trained standing joint locks and drilled them consistently and test them consistently, they could pull them off at a higher rate than most.
Its common sense.
Do people that advocate standing joint locks do that?
The vast majority don't.

Show me anyone who can consistently and regularly pull off standing joint locks in sparring/fighting against people their size or larger. They don't exist. Standing joint locks are essentially fantasy martial art. People who teach them are teaching fantasy. It doesn't matter how much you practice nonsense (things that won't work), you'll never transform nonsense into sense (things that do).

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is a commonly taught tactic, it is also usually taught incorrectly. I remember an article in (not to mess with Gene name of magazine deleted) magazine where they showed that block against a knife, the person with the knife grabbed it with the other hand and sunk the knife into the person's exposed kidney This was back in the early 80's I admit so most probably never saw this article (it was from the Philipines)

That aside, the obvious problem still remains that once on the ground, he applies the lock incorrectly....

I think I recall the one of which you speak of.
The thing is, the key lock is one of the more tricky ones to pull off even on the ground, its easy to counter and most try to force it rather than set it up and it does need a good set up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Show me anyone who can consistently and regularly pull off standing joint locks in sparring/fighting against people their size or larger. They don't exist. Standing joint locks are essentially fantasy martial art. People who teach them are teaching fantasy. It doesn't matter how much you practice nonsense (things that won't work), you'll never transform nonsense into sense (things that do).

I know of a few that have done it and I have done it VS untrained people (bouncing), but I never count those times.
I never tired to pull it off VS trained people because the action is too fast and my "bread-n-butter' while standing is striking, not joint locks and you don't try to pull off anything other than your A stuff VS a trained fighter.
The waki-gatame is one that works well, but tricky to pull off.

[t_niehoff]

This key lock take down is one of the most common one, even used against the over hand vertical knife stab, I am sure everyone has been taught that one.

I learned it in almost every system I have trained in, except Kali because they actual know how to use a knife, but it is very common, even in the military we were taught it.

It is commonly taught -- which just underscores how bad information gets promulgated and accepted (though apparently never questioned and/or tested). This sort of thing pervades WCK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is commonly taught -- which just underscores how bad information gets promulgated and accepted (though apparently never questioned and/or tested). This sort of thing pervades WCK.

Not just WCK, almost every MA has it.

[t_niehoff]

I know of a few that have done it and I have done it VS untrained people (bouncing), but I never count those times.
I never tired to pull it off VS trained people because the action is too fast and my "bread-n-butter' while standing is striking, not joint locks and you don't try to pull off anything other than your A stuff VS a trained fighter.
The waki-gatame is one that works well, but tricky to pull off.

Here's the thing about skill -- if you can do something skillfully, then you can do it on demand (at least regularly and consistently). Right? Or was it just a fluke?

If someone can do this on demand, then why can't we ever see it done with a genuinely resisting opponent? Why do we only ever hear about it in stories?

[t_niehoff]

Not just WCK, almost every MA has it.

No. There is a fantasy-filter that some martial arts have. That filter will screen out the nonsense, the bullsh1t, the liars, the fantasy, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's the thing about skill -- if you can do something skillfully, then you can do it on demand (at least regularly and consistently). Right? Or was it just a fluke?

If someone can do this on demand, then why can't we ever see it done with a genuinely resisting opponent? Why do we only ever hear about it in stories?

I agree, but you need to remember that many moves are stuck in some MA simply because that can work on an untrained individual.
Bouncers use standing locks "all the time", to varying degrees of effectiveness mind you.
Though I have never used the key lock myself even against an untrained resiting opponent.

No. There is a fantasy-filter that some martial arts have. That filter will screen out the nonsense, the bullsh1t, the liars, the fantasy, etc.

I would agree that most grappling based arts have a far more practical view of grappling than striking arts that throw grappling into the mix.
But then again I have seen some strange views on striking in the grappling world.