Why Jiu-Jitsu is more important than Kung Fu

[Ray Pina]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

[taai gihk yahn]

good point, but perhaps one could generalize it a bit and look at it from the perspective of how the efficacy of strikes in the jamming range decreases / dissipates when in clinching / grappling range?

[diego]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

welcome to 4 A.D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath

I'm sure the big guy has always been the issue...kung fu dances with weapons, what else do you need?.

[TenTigers]

perhaps you should have studied more Kung-Fu before you decide you understand its concepts enough to discount the genre of TCMA
. Sure, we intercept the strike, countering at the same time, but the idea is not to then disengage and then do it again and again, which is why you say your opponents can build up a defense against it, as your element of surprise is now gone. That is the sportfighting mentality.
Rather, the idea is to shut him down. Intercept/counter, as you said, but continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed. Do it and be done. The arts you studied-Hung-Ga, Wing Chun and some SPM, as well as the Hsing-Yi all use this fighting philosophy.
btw-easier said than done, but that is the basic idea.

[Ray Pina]

perhaps you should have studied more Kung-Fu before you decide you understand its concepts enough to discount the genre of TCMA
. Sure, we intercept the strike, countering at the same time, but the idea is not to then disengage and then do it again and again, which is why you say your opponents can build up a defense against it, as your element of surprise is now gone. That is the sportfighting mentality.
Rather, the idea is to shut him down. Intercept/counter, as you said, but continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed. Do it and be done. The arts you studied-Hung-Ga, Wing Chun and some SPM, as well as the Hsing-Yi all use this fighting philosophy.
btw-easier said than done, but that is the basic idea.

No need to become aggressive and defensive. I'm not discounting anything. In fact, I said I enjoyed the method. The problem is, it is not to easy to "shut him down. Intercept/counter," and "continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed."

The other guy is training too. In fact, I would argue the guy that is fighting and also traing in jiu-jitsu is most likely training harder than your typical Wing Chun, Hung Gar man. When was the last time you ended a fight against another trained man in the initial engagement?

So my point, at least for me, is that jiu-jitsu provides such an overwhelming advantage when one has it and the other doesn't. Where as efficient striking, perhaps even more efficient realistic striking, can be found more readily from a wide assortment of styles.

[eomonroe00]

ray you make a strong claim, can you explain a little more, what makes jiu jitsu such an overwelming force, you only mention how individuals in that style train harder than others, is that the only reason?

[TenTigers]

"No need to become aggressive and defensive. I'm not discounting anything. In fact, I said I enjoyed the method. The problem is, it is not to easy to "shut him down. Intercept/counter," and "continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed."
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like I said-easier said than done-but that is the goal. The problem is, most people abandon their training before ever approaching, let alone achieving that goal.
Ever wonder why there are so few accomplished -really accomplished Martial artists? I'm not talking about tough guys who can kick and punch, but men who have actually achieved MASTERY. Ever stop and think about why Gin Foon Mark is held in such high esteem?


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"The other guy is training too. In fact, I would argue the guy that is fighting and also traing in jiu-jitsu is most likely training harder than your typical Wing Chun, Hung Gar man. "
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That has nothing to do with styles. That is purely training.
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"When was the last time you ended a fight against another trained man in the initial engagement?"
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I admit-not often. But...my Sifu does that to me in a heartbeat. I'm working to get there. I'm not there yet. But I am training to get there.
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"So my point, at least for me, is that jiu-jitsu provides such an overwhelming advantage when one has it and the other doesn't. Where as efficient striking, perhaps even more efficient realistic striking, can be found more readily from a wide assortment of styles."
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that's just plain stupid. ANYONE has an advantage when one has it and the other one doesn't. No matter what the technique.

I am not argueing that BJJ does not have great stuff. ALL MA has great stuff.
The fact is, most people have not really gotten far enough into their style to make an educated assessment. Certainly not you. You have DABBLED in a little bit of Gung-Fu. Sure, you picked up some cool stuff and some skills, But you never stayed long enough or trained contnuously enough to really understand TCMA.

Ray, I like you. You are strong, young, and willing to do whatever it takes to learn and develop your technique.
You get major cool points.
The truth of the matter is, you have very little experience and knowledge in TCMA.
Not that you haven't trained in it-but not to the extent that you are in any position to speak on its strengths and weaknesses.
This is not a put-down. Hai Gum La- It is what it is.

BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE!
I am your biggest fan.
Whenever you go out and fight or test yourself, I am in your corner, right there with you , rooting for you. Because I love what you are doing. And I know you are in there testing yourself, trying out new stuff, and putting yourself on the line
That is certainly more than most people-especially most on these forums are willing to do. You da man.

You just need to understand that there is more to what you have learned, than what you have learned. (pretty fukin zen, huh)
You have only scratched the surface.
Keep it up.
I actually think you are on the right track.

[Shaolinlueb]

perhaps you should have studied more Kung-Fu before you decide you understand its concepts enough to discount the genre of TCMA
. Sure, we intercept the strike, countering at the same time, but the idea is not to then disengage and then do it again and again, which is why you say your opponents can build up a defense against it, as your element of surprise is now gone. That is the sportfighting mentality.
Rather, the idea is to shut him down. Intercept/counter, as you said, but continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed. Do it and be done. The arts you studied-Hung-Ga, Wing Chun and some SPM, as well as the Hsing-Yi all use this fighting philosophy.
btw-easier said than done, but that is the basic idea.

/thread............

[TenTigers]

/thread............

bull****. you know this forum. it will only lead to the usual *******s,er, suspects shooting their mouths off.

[Ray Pina]

ray you make a strong claim, can you explain a little more, what makes jiu jitsu such an overwelming force, you only mention how individuals in that style train harder than others, is that the only reason?

For me the lesson was made crystal clear when one of coach Rosses men pinned my a$$ in side control in my first cage match. I've had all types of Kung Fu guys who picked up "some grappling" here and there put me in that position. A real jiu-jitsu man who knows how to pin you down, use his shoulder to press your face into the mat, sink his weight into you and control your hips and keep it tight.... it is very hard to get out of that. There are mechanical and structural requirements that don't come naturally. The same could be said for many positions, but side control made it clear to me. I began studying at Renzo Gracies the following week.

[Ray Pina]

that's just plain stupid. ANYONE has an advantage when one has it and the other one doesn't. No matter what the technique. .

I stopped reading your post right here for two reasons. 1) For some reason your last two posts, including this one, have an air of arrogance about them. 2) You are wrong and expose your level, thinking, and defensive posture when it comes to your money making pajama party.

Wing Chun's Bong Sau, Tan Sau, Fuk Sau..... why hasn't any Wing Chun guys gone on a rampage dominating people with this technology the way jiu-jitsu guys have with theirs?

Because it doesn't provide an overwhelming advantage. God knows I faced it, destroyed it, and said, you know what, after 5 years I got enough of the flavor of this thing. None of these guys can fight with this $hit. Same could be said for crane beak, Lama's big swooping shots where they don't block, but just dodge strikes. No one has done di(k with this exclusive technology.

But to pass up jiu-jitsu today, now that it is out of the bag, you instantly regulate yourself to the sidelines. You can not compete with someone who is comfortable throwing the fists AND has jiu-jitsu. And when I say compete, I'm not just saying the ring or cage. I'm talking 1-on-1 until its done.

Let those who have eyes to see, see; ears to hear, hear. Shame on those who would purposely conceal light and truth to others for profit.

[brothernumber9]

Ray,

I generally agree objectively with what you are stating. Keep in mind also that you started training at Renzo's. and although there are some other comparable gyms/instructors to learn from, there are already visible signs of places that are jumpling on the BJJ bandwagon and giving instruction no where near to what you are getting. The integrity at large is still intact, I assume, for BJJ. If you see a guy with a blue, brown, or black belt, chances are they earned it and are skilled.
But now there are karate, Tae Kwon Do, and kung fu schools that are trying to integrate some sort of ground training, and in some cases propagating BS blackbelts, or fabricating the entire curriculum alltogether. It will eventually still be left down to man vs man or woman vs woman and what each brings to the fight on that occasion. I do agree that ground experience vs. little-to-no ground exp = huge advantages and disadvantages.

[Ray Pina]

I am not argueing that BJJ does not have great stuff. ALL MA has great stuff.
The fact is, most people have not really gotten far enough into their style to make an educated assessment. Certainly not you. You have DABBLED in a little bit of Gung-Fu. Sure, you picked up some cool stuff and some skills, But you never stayed long enough or trained contnuously enough to really understand TCMA.
.

You have said this now a few times and now I am going to address it.

I put in 12 to 13 years of Issin-Ryu (five days a week, two classes a night) BEFORE I started Kung Fu. That helps a lot.

I put about 5 to 6 years into Wing Chun and Hung Gar. For me, that was enough. Maybe I'm a fool. Sure I'd have learned more not fighting and doing chi sau for another five years, but the style of Master David Bond Chan was too much for me to pass. And instantly I saw the weaknesses in what I was studying. So I put about another 5 to 7 years with him. It's hard to tell. The years all combine together at some point.

But here comes my other major point.... WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE ME AND MY KUNG FU????? Who has appointed you.... and to what status?

I'm breaking my a$$ fighting monthly down here. In the past year I've had to deal with a broken collar bone, rib and now foot which is still healing. I'm improving and continuing to base my progress against other young men who are working hard to win at a competitive level.

But more importantly, I think my willingness to pick up shop and move onto something completely new is my advantage. It would be easy for me to don one of my two black belts and sit in front of class like a hero. Instead I tie on a new white belt, turn off my mind and ego, and expand myself.

Best of luck to you and your school in 2009.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

I generally agree objectively with what you are stating. ....., there are already visible signs of places that are jumpling on the BJJ bandwagon and giving instruction no where near to what you are getting.

First, thank you for being honest and being willing to post the obvious though it may not be popular. For me this discussion is not about better or worse, it's just a no brainer.


You are right about non-BJJ schools incorporating the stuff and I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, kudos to them for trying to expand their knowledge. On the other hand, all too often one doesn't know what they don't know.

We recently had a big tournament down here and it was night and day between the straight BJJ schools and the karate/BJJ schools. None of them placed. They were generally thrown and submitted for the same reasons I stated..... they were overwhelmed, unable to escape positions. So they exhausted themselves struggling and easy to submit.

A newbie wouldn't know the difference in schools, and that's a shame. But you'd guess with time and exposure they'd be able to tell. And if they were smart they'd make the switch after seeing results at tournament.

[MasterKiller]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

Really, this is not a BJJ vs Kung Fu argument. It's a BJJ vs Striking argument.

If a BJJ player double-legs a Muay Thai fighter, he's going to have the same issues.

If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more 'pure' striking arts. We all know most CMA places don't train with the same intensity as sport clubs, which is usually why they get stomped in competition.