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Thread: questions about tan tui

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
    The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

    It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

    In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

    Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.
    mister cazoneri is right this is exactly what it is for. also, if youhit with the forearms u have to swing really far back
    also can be a habit from using the saber because u need a counterbalance and some styles are just sloppy, but the main reason is what mister cazoneri said
    Last edited by bawang; 01-12-2009 at 10:48 AM.

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
    The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

    It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

    In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

    Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.
    No, this is not some exotic usage, whereby students learn how to knock out two opponents, a shorter one in front and a taller one in back, at the same time. This is mental training, and it can be found in movements throughout all the long fist forms. -Adam Hsu

    Namaste

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.
    You may give more credit to Tan Tui then it deserves. The Tan Tui #4 can be used as "front cut" but the others are pure "striking" only. Someone said that Tan Tui #2 can be used as "hip throw". Since there is no "bending head to touch the legs" in #2, it will be too abstract to assume that.

  4. #34
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    what mister salccanzeri says is right, there is training specifically for this where u hit 8 sand bags all around you
    this isnt a "esoteric" explanation this is a common technique in north kung fu, "erlang climbs the mountain" "luohan carries burden" where you punch a second guy in the nuts behind u
    this is a habit from using the double hammer or ax where you always swing all the way behind you to get momentum
    also can be a habit of using a heavy saber for couterbalance
    Last edited by bawang; 01-13-2009 at 02:46 PM.

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You may give more credit to Tan Tui then it deserves. The Tan Tui #4 can be used as "front cut" but the others are pure "striking" only. Someone said that Tan Tui #2 can be used as "hip throw". Since there is no "bending head to touch the legs" in #2, it will be too abstract to assume that.
    I can easily, very easily, do all the rows in tan toi as "takedowns. The leg positions at the end of each movement are a clear indicator of how to do it. They are slanted for taking down an opponent. The rest of the movements are for scissoring through an opponent and unbalancing them for a takedown.

    Every teacher I had has shown me how to this.

    And the same is true for every long fist set I know (Shaolin, Cha Quan, etc., etc.).

    Punching and kicking is just one level of usage, then comes Chin na, then comes takedowns.

    I've done long fist sets since 1975, always was shown each level of usage.

  6. #36
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    Are we talking about the same Tan Tui set? The #9 and #10 are all kicks and I just don't know how to apply it into throw. Take down (or throw) will require at least 2 points contact in opposite directions. I can see that in #4 (push hand forward and kick leg backward) but I just don't see that in the other roads. The #8 has 2 points contact but the "intend" is missing (not enough "pulling" intend).

    http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-14-2009 at 01:12 AM.

  7. #37
    i learnt up to 8th road of tan tui with applications


    i gotta say i didnt see it coming in use

    maybe its just me but i've gotta ask, are the movements in tan tui exaggerations on real moves used for practise's sake ?


    like extending too far when punching to practise penetrating power


    ??
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Are we talking about the same Tan Tui set? The #9 and #10 are all kicks and I just don't know how to apply it into throw. Take down (or throw) will require at least 2 points contact in opposite directions. I can see that in #4 (push hand forward and kick leg backward) but I just don't see that in the other roads. The #8 has 2 points contact but the "intend" is missing (not enough "pulling" intend).

    http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV
    Well, look, a takedown is not only a throw. A throw is one type of takedown. Any movement that causes the opponent to unbalance and fall to the ground is a takedown.
    You can do that by throwing a person (using all the different classic ways of doing that), or you can do that by executing the exact same movements as a kick or punch but using those movements to scissor the opponents body and unbalance them, "a kick is not a kick, a punch is not a punch".
    Many takedowns are about stepping into an opponent's space and unbalancing them while doing movements in reaction to being grabbed.

    The beginning of Row #8 is a classic tong bei type takedown movement. You quickly move out of the way of an incoming strike, you suddenly turn back trapping their arm, and you do a parting the horse's mane movement, which first pulls them down and then up and over.

    Row #9 is classic takedown from XY and Ba Fan Shan style: your wrists are grabbed, you turn out your arms as in XY Tai (sometimes called Ostrich) which overturns your opponents arms and traps them, then you jump step through the opponents center and push them over with your palms hitting their waist/ribs area, which tips them over and down.
    Done it many times.

    Row #10 rushes the opponent and trips them over your extended legs as you pull them, you keep going with the movements until you overwhelm them and they fall.

    Most people do not appreciate long fist because they only saw one small part of it's use. Also, if you really study where movements in styles come from (like the research I do) you can see that tan toi absorbed movements from tong bei, Tai Zu Quan, hong quan, Mi Song Quan, and so on. When you see these movements done in those styles, you can see how they apply them.

    Kicking and Punching is just the very beginning.

    One can only see by doing, not thinking.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden arhat View Post
    i learnt up to 8th road of tan tui with applications


    i gotta say i didnt see it coming in use

    maybe its just me but i've gotta ask, are the movements in tan tui exaggerations on real moves used for practise's sake ?


    like extending too far when punching to practise penetrating power


    ??
    Well, that simply means you only are looking on the surface of the form, not how and why movements are done. That's what most people do when they learn forms and then they become just dance movements.
    There are no set applications to any forms, there is only the natural movements you do and the results that you want. If your intend is to take down the opponent instead of fighting them, you will get different results.

    tan Toi is a distillation of movements from various Cha Quan sets. Cha Quan is a Moslem Chinese martial art which absorbed movements from many styles in Shantong province and where it was originally from (western china).
    Cha Quan applications are pretty fierce, they don't fool around.

    What looks like horse stance and bow stances are also takedowns.

    I'm 50 years old, I learned how to understand forms because I started learning back in the 1970s, when training was very hard and very focused on saving your life. Not trying to sound like a braggart, please.

    Maybe I should hold seminars on how to use forms for real.

    I even showed a Tae Kwon Do black belt that all their sets are also takedowns. When they didn't understand, I said 'What set do you know the very most?', they showed me it, and then I said okay I will grab your wrists right now and you do the set exactly as you learned it, forget about me holding your wrists (very tight), and their movements proceeded to take me down and fall.
    What looked like punches and kicks were now obvious set ups for unbalancing and then tripping the opponent.

    There's now a good book about this called "Barefoot Zen", read it, it's insightful.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Row #9 is classic takedown from XY and Ba Fan Shan style: your wrists are grabbed, you turn out your arms as in XY Tai (sometimes called Ostrich) which overturns your opponents arms and traps them, then you jump step through the opponents center and push them over with your palms hitting their waist/ribs area, which tips them over and down.
    Done it many times.
    But the "push them over with your palms" is not part of the form. If you add "push" in any forward movement by using your leg to trap your opponent's legs then every move can be a throw.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    But the "push them over with your palms" is not part of the form. If you add "push" in any forward movement by using your leg to trap your opponent's legs then every move can be a throw.
    At the end of #9, of the Cha Quan 10 Tan toi, not the standard 12 Tan toi, there is a final movement with both palms making a v shape as they extend out, which would slam into an opponent's under rib area and knock them back.

    Many applications have more movement than it's analogous move in a form.

    If you think of moving natural and don't worry about an "exact" application, then forms offer a treasure trove of techniques in every posture. Many applications will arise.

    That's why they say to practice a form until it does not exist anymore.

  12. #42
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    IMO, a successful take down will require 3 contact points, an arm pulling, a shoulder pushing, and a leg hooking. Those requirements are not completed in Tan Tui training. I started my Tan Tui training since 1962. I do wish that Tan Tui could contain all the throwing skill that I need.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    IMO, a successful take down will require 3 contact points, an arm pulling, a shoulder pushing, and a leg hooking. Those requirements are not completed in Tan Tui training. I started my Tan Tui training since 1962. I do wish that Tan Tui could contain all the throwing skill that I need.
    That's Shui Jiao style takedowns, yes.

    I've learned many takedowns from forms in Shaolin sets and tan tui sets, where we scissor through the opponent.

    Case in point, many forms in long fist have a movement where it looks like you are stepping forward in bow right stance while doing right punch (or left bow/left punch).

    Well, if done as a takedown (I've done it many times in street fights), as the person attacks you step so that you are on the outside of their body, your punching arm slices through them as you step so that their body is cu tin half by your extended arm and your non extended arm grabs the back of their front leg's knee, the momentum of your stepping makes the guys fall to the ground.

    All shaolin forms have this move, tan tui can be used the same way.

    Learned this from many teacher's of Shaolin, and specifically about tan tui from student of late master Fan Chi Sau, among others, about 20 years ago.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    That's Shui Jiao style takedowns, yes.
    IMO, there is no such thing as SC take down vs. LF take down.

    Trapping your opponent's leg to take him down may work against average people but with people who has "leg escape" training, you may still give him too much freedom.

    If you push my right shoulder,

    - (1 contact point) then I can borrow your force to spin (yield) and get out of it.
    - and at the same time you hook my right leg (2 contact points) then I can still borrow your force to spin and use my body rotation to pull my right leg out of your hooking.
    - and at the same time you hook my left leg (2 contact points) then I can not borrow your force to spin because you use 2 dimensional force. But since my arms are still free, I can interrupt your pushing.
    - and at the same time you pull my right arm (2 contact points) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate since you pull my right arm. But since my legs are still free, I can hook my leg on your leg and make your body and my body to be one unit. Any force that you apply on me will be transferred back to you.
    - and at the same time you pull my right arm, and hook one of my legs (3 contact points - whether you hook my right leg or left leg, the result will be the same) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate, and I cannot use my leg to hook yours, you have just taken my defense away.

    We should not just talk about take down without talking about "how to take your opponent's defense away". We will need "one pulling arm" and "one hooking leg" along with our "pushing" in order to achieve the maximum result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    late master Fan Chi Sau,
    One of my LF brother also trained with him. An excellent CMA master. My Tan Tui came from GM Han Ching-Tan's student master Li Mo-Chin and I learned it in my 1st year of my senior high.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-14-2009 at 07:09 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    IMO, there is no such thing as SC take down vs. LF take down.

    Trapping your opponent's leg to take him down may work against average people but with people who has "leg escape" training, you may still give him too much freedom.

    If you push my right shoulder,

    - (1 contact point) then I can borrow your force to spin (yield) and get out of it.
    - and at the same time you hook my right leg (2 contact points) then I can still borrow your force to spin and use my body rotation to pull my right leg out of your hooking.
    - and at the same time you hook my left leg (2 contact points) then I can not borrow your force to spin because you use 2 dimensional force. But since my arms are still free, I can interrupt your pushing.
    - and at the same time you pull my right arm (2 contact points) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate since you pull my right arm. But since my legs are still free, I can hook my leg on your leg and make your body and my body to be one unit. Any force that you apply on me will be transferred back to you.
    - and at the same time you pull my right arm, and hook one of my legs (3 contact points - whether you hook my right leg or left leg, the result will be the same) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate, and I cannot use my leg to hook yours, you have just taken my defense away.

    We should not just talk about take down without talking about "how to take your opponent's defense away". We will need "one pulling arm" and "one hooking leg" along with our "pushing" in order to achieve the maximum result.


    One of my LF brother also trained with him. An excellent CMA master. My Tan Tui came from GM Han Ching-Tan's student master Li Mo-Chin and I learned it in my 1st year of my senior high.
    Yes, I am in total agreement about everything you said, those conditions of course exist as you described in those situations.

    But, maybe what I am talking about is a different way to do takedown?

    In Tai Zu Quan, Rou Quan, Hong Quan, and other long fist styles and sets from Shaolin influence, and in White Ape Tong Bei, and in Ba Fan Shan, I learned to scissor an opponent.

    It did not involve pulling an arm or hooking a leg. Rather, as you redirected the opponent's strike to outside of our body at a sharp angle with your right arm (for example), which moved the opponent so as to start to unbalance him; at the same time, your left side of your body rammed through the opponent's center line, so that your extended left arm was on one side and your left leg on the other side of his body. Your left arm pass through but doesn't push, your whole body pushes and squeezes the opponent's body, your left leg doesn't hook either. It looks like a scissor is cutting him.

    If you did this movement without an opponent, it looks really too simple:
    first step at a 45 degree angle with your right leg as you circle out (parry) clockwise with your right arm, then withdraw this arm and hand becomes a hook and withdraws to your right side. Suddenly, then you "punch with your left arm" as you first extend your left leg into bow stance and then move into a one legged stance (bearing weight on left leg).

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