Shaolin Temple Discipleship

[Chan Quan]

LFJ is right. Vows are meant to be taken seriously and for a lifetime. Full monastic vows are a considerable undertaking.

But back OT, Chan Quan, your question is almost like asking "How do I get married?" before ever kissing a girl. Or a boy. Not sure what sex you are. Not sure that matters anymore in many states. But I digress. Generally, you don't start with the big full-on vows first. I only took layman vows. I took two sets, one as a Zen practitioner and another as a Shaolin disciple. That's plenty for me. I have no intention of becoming a monk. There was a time when I considered it, and I've actually lived at a couple temples and done some work studies, but I realized that it really wasn't my path. So take a few steps first, baby steps if you will, before tackling the big ones, just in case it's not where you want to go. You have to start small anyway.

Find a Buddhist temple. Start a practice there. Get some tutelage.

Being a monk is not what most people think it is.

At first I wanted to learn more about the ritual and the process.

It is something I have thought about for some time. I will attend some services here in NY; probably at Master Shengyen's Dharma Drum Mountain and see how the Shaolin Temple Overseas is in Flushing.

I absolutely must take this slowly, if I want to make it a lifelong committment to something greater than myself. All I know is that since I've begun searching in this direction, I've been a happier, more tolerant, more patient, and much stronger person.

Becoming a full-fledged monk in *any* Buddhist tradition is an enormous committment. To be honest, I think that denying yourself a family, a wife, and children, robs your life of an essential joy. So I probably could not become a full monk.

I wasn't aware of the different kinds of vows one can take; I will definitely attend my first service this week. And perhaps, I can have two masters: one, a Buddhist "pastor" if you will, and the other, a martial arts instructor.

Gene, you mentioned that you took two vows. One as a layman, and the other as a Shaolin disciple. Being a Shaolin disciple is different from being a monk? How so and in what ways?

[GeneChing]

When you become a disciple, you become a disciple of a specific individual. You can become a disciple of any master in any discipline, not just Shaolin. Kung fu masters often take disciples, but so do masters in tea ceremony, painting, music, what have you. Anyone can become a disciple, just like anyone can get married (except if your gay in some states ). Some people disciple under multiple masters, but I've always thought that was odd, like polygamy. In a nutshell, it's a commitment to follow a specific teacher, to treat him or her like your parent. Of course, in Chinese culture, that's huge. Confucian ethics and filial piety makes massive demands on children in regards to respecting their parents.

There are countless Shaolin disciples. Some of the monks take thousands of disciples. The abbot allegedly has thousands. Others only take a few.

To become a monk, first of all, you're already a disciple of a monk. Next you must be accepted by the monastic community. It's more vows, more commitment, much deeper.

[LFJ]

it should also be made clear that it is secular discipleship, combining buddhist vows (committing to the buddha) with gongfu/confucian family vows (committing to your master and family).

for the buddhist half of the vows taken it is basically going for refuge in the triple gem (buddha, dharma, sangha) and then taking the five lay buddhist precepts. one still lives at home as a lay follower.

this can be done in any buddhist tradition. it is the basic requirement for becoming "buddhist". before taking refuge and the five precepts you are not "officially" buddhist. its called "entering the gate", but it is still not "leaving home" and entering the monastic life.

[GeneChing]

As for my Shaolin vows, they make it clear that there are wenseng and wuseng discipleships. Mine was wuseng. Decheng is wuseng.

As for my layman vows, LFJ is right again. I took the Bodhisattva precepts, of which there are ten in my tradition.

[lee jiaolian]

Hi Guys! I'm kind of new to this forum and thought I'd break the ice by sharing a story

I spent some time in summer of 2011 in dengfeng at Shi De Yangs school. I went with a group of kung fu brothers and sisters and slept and trained alongside the students there. The few times De Yang actually had time to speak to us in person were very profound moments. One such is this; one of our group asked De Yang "How exactly do we become shaolin disciples?" through his translator Jackie, De Yang Shifu kind of looked at us funny and said that the first day we commited to started our training back home was the day we started as disciples. That everyone who practices shaolin become a part of it and helps spread and keep shaolin alive.

That gave us chills hearing it come from the man himself. (so yea we had a little hero worship)

Funny, we all thought there was some ceremony to it, at least to the point of shaving our heads (hah!) Some of us even were starting to come up with the courage before we left the states to ask to become disciples, not necessarily his (not to sound arrogant), but of shaolin in general. Come to find out all that inner turmoil was pointless, it can be as simple as practicing a ma bu if you have come to the realization in your mind you are becoming an embodiment of shaolin as you train. So we are all already disciples. Cool eh?

[GeneChing]

lee jiaolian, I've merged your post above with this larger thread which discusses discipleship.

[Shaolin]

all that inner turmoil was pointless

Words to live by.

[lee jiaolian]

thanks for the move gene, still kinda new at this and didnt even see this earlier thread.

[GeneChing]

Really? There must be thousands of us westerner disciples by now.

One of first westerners be made disciple
Thursday, September 20, 2012

TOTNES martial arts instructor Matt Bindon has become one of the first westerners to be made an official disciple of the famed Shaolin Temple.

The kung fu expert, who trains in the traditional style founded by the famous Shaolin school in China, recently returned from the temple in the Hubei Province where he trained with masters and monks at the North Shaolin Temple.

During his stay, the Totnes instructor, who has travelled to China on several occasions to perfect his technique in tai chi, chi gong, traditional Shaolin kung fu and sanda or Chinese kickboxing, and attended an official ceremony.

He said: "It was such a privilege and a fantastic experience."

During his stay, Matt was also interviewed and filmed by Chinese TV who were interested in a foreigner studying the traditional martial art.

Matt, who has been training more than 25 years, teaches real authentic Shaolin kung fu in Devon.

He is one of the first western persons to be sworn in as a 35th Generation Shaolin Warrior Disciple.

As part of the ceremony, he received an official Chinese name given to him by the Shaolin Masters from the Temple.

Known as 'Shifu Matt', he trained under Master Shi Yanming Chen and had to start training at 5am for eight to nine hours of intensive training every day.

He said: "Training was very hard and I had to perform in front of other Masters and the Temples Head Abbot.

"I had the chance to train with top Masters in their respective styles which was very special."

Shaolin Kung Fu is the oldest of martial arts and teaches a complete system of martial technique and ability, while overall improving and maintaining health and well being.

Matt said that although it takes years to master Shaolin martial arts, he teaches all levels from beginners to advanced at the Follaton Community Hall in Totnes.

[TaichiMantis]

Matt, who has been training more than 25 years, teaches real authentic Shaolin kung fu in Devon

.

...as opposed to "fake" authentic Shaolin Kung fu!

[LFJ]

.

...as opposed to "fake" authentic Shaolin Kung fu!

There is such a thing... The monks teach it now.

It's basically comprised of some authentic forms taught by authentic monks (in some cases), but they have no knowledge of fighting principles contained in the forms. The fighting side taught is just Sanda.

So it is indeed authentic, but it's still fake.

[Songshan]

There is such a thing... The monks teach it now.

It's basically comprised of some authentic forms taught by authentic monks (in some cases), but they have no knowledge of fighting principles contained in the forms. The fighting side taught is just Sanda.

So it is indeed authentic, but it's still fake.

Sort of agree, but it's hard to imagine what "Shaolin" authenticity would be without government rule and of course the politics. Some monks are "fake" because of interesting inner workings of Shaolin. It's a very intricate system that usually ends up in becoming a finger pointing contest anyway.

[YouKnowWho]

they have no knowledge of fighting principles contained in the forms.

I have met some Shaolin monks. From what they told me, their forms do have application. But those application are standerlized that no monk teacher is allow to change it.

It's not that difficult to come up just one application. Whether those monks know different applications, or be able to apply thos application in combat will be a different story.

[LFJ]

Notice I said fighting principles, not applications. Their applications have to be standardized because they don't actually understand the inherent concepts and principles of the forms or the system even. They think the hundreds of forms contain hundreds of hypothetical responses to a straight punch for instance. That kind of thinking is useless, as you will never be able to decide on a particular response for a particular situation in a fraction of a second and apply it successfully. Fighting doesn't work like that.

That's why they show hypothetical "applications" for each move as they teach the forms, but when they teach sparring they put on big gloves and just do Sanda.

Xiaohongquan, for example, contains within it concepts and principles of the "flood boxing" subsystem of Shaolin, which in itself teaches proper facing structure, range in combat, the "flood" strategy, principles for dealing with different kinds of force, and so on unique to the concept of "flood boxing".

The monks of today know nothing of this type of thing. They know individual "applications" for each move and then Sanda.

So it's authentic in that the forms are indeed authentic, and the monks may be monks, but it's still fake...

[rett]

Notice I said fighting principles, not applications. Their applications have to be standardized because they don't actually understand the inherent concepts and principles of the forms or the system even. They think the hundreds of forms contain hundreds of hypothetical responses to a straight punch for instance. That kind of thinking is useless, as you will never be able to decide on a particular response for a particular situation in a fraction of a second and apply it successfully. Fighting doesn't work like that.

That's why they show hypothetical "applications" for each move as they teach the forms, but when they teach sparring they put on big gloves and just do Sanda.

Xiaohongquan, for example, contains within it concepts and principles of the "flood boxing" subsystem of Shaolin, which in itself teaches proper facing structure, range in combat, the "flood" strategy, principles for dealing with different kinds of force, and so on unique to the concept of "flood boxing".

The monks of today know nothing of this type of thing. They know individual "applications" for each move and then Sanda.

So it's authentic in that the forms are indeed authentic, and the monks may be monks, but it's still fake...

Sounds like a realistic and clear-headed view of the situation. It would be really interesting if you have the time/desire to elaborate on any of this. I realize it might not easily lend itself to the written word, of course.