WCK clips

[Phil Redmond]

There are two new clips of Serbian Sifu Nenad Koviljac here: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp

[Katsu Jin Ken]

the bong tan was interesting, lot of space initially but all in all something i will defeniately try out. The pak lap is pretty cool as well.

[t_niehoff]

While I did like his clown outfit, what he demo'ed was a complete fantasy sequence (appropriate for the outfit, I guess).

No one is going to "straight punch" and continue to hold their arm out for you. (And while we're at it, they're not going to "punch" without trying to really hit you). And if they don't do that, this "technique" will never work -- it involves two movements (bong then tan) against what should be one very quick movement. Not only that but the tan sao will open you to his next shot. Of course my analysis could be easily refuted by showing him actually pulling that off in sparring consistently against good nonWCK fighters, but of course we'll won't see that until pigs fly. All this is is a fantasy sequence that will never work and to train it is to train fantasy.

Top that all off with the punches -- if you want to call them that. They are not punches since they don't hit and they don't achieve any objective (like breaking structure); they are fantasy, imaginary punches (just imagine if I hit the guy with these) wherehe just moves in the air. Well, if you are going to practice doing imaginary actions, why not just make the block imaginary too or just imagine that you are stepping?

Silly. This was simply silly.

[KPM]

Why put energy into a Tan Sao to completely change the line or trajectory of someone's punch when you could simply go around it or redirect it slightly? It doesn't seem very efficient to me. This even seems to violate the TWC rule of flanking. Why "open" the guy up with a Tan and put yourself on the inside where you could potentially have to deal with his other arm rather than leaving his punching arm on the line it occupies while doing a Lop to go around to the outside and zoning away from his other arm?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Why put energy into a Tan Sao to completely change the line or trajectory of someone's punch when you could simply go around it or redirect it slightly? It doesn't seem very efficient to me. This even seems to violate the TWC rule of flanking. Why "open" the guy up with a Tan and put yourself on the inside where you could potentially have to deal with his other arm rather than leaving his punching arm on the line it occupies while doing a Lop to go around to the outside and zoning away from his other arm?

***I'VE got to comment on this tan clip, because to let it stand as is will leave some unnecessary mistaken impressions.

Here's my experience with this move:

First, using the bong to a lop sao as one jams the straight lead punch from the parallel (blindside) position is a good move - as long as it's begun from a distance close enough to insure he doesn't have time and space to hook around the bong (with his lead hand) at the moment the wing chun guy starts to commit.

Secondly, the biggest issue is actually his other hand - as he could instantly follow with the rear cross to the head, to the body, or an uppercut to head or body, or a haymaker (round) punch to the head or body with the other hand...

at which point you have to interrupt your bong lop and deal with his other punch - whatever it may be - instead of transitioning the wu to a lop...which assumes he didn't throw the other hand.

BAD ASSUMPTION, since the chances are that he might interrupt his straight lead punch and/or simply immediately follow it with the other hand within the twinkling of an eye.

Does that mean you can never jam his lead with the bong before he gets a chance to unload the other hand?

No. It can be done. At a very close distance. But the wing chun fighter better be prepared for the other possibility - as against a good fighter it's the greater possibility.

Which means that the transition to TAN from the bong without immediately having to deal with his other hand being thrown at you before you could follow with the palm strike (as shown in the vid) is very unrealistic - since you are now on the inside and he has a clearer and less obstructed path to throw the other hand with.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Actually what you were seeing is taught in Chi Sao exercise. Same side, fook sao, tan sao, fook drops the tan, fook converts to punch, countered by bong, which immediately converts to tan sao, countered by fook. Thing is to not bong so deeply. Done at a shallow angle it is a quick conversion and the palm strike in conjunction with the tan sao will stop any effort of the other hand in striking at you.
I missed the clown suit I guess. Was it the white gung fu uniform blouse? I think that they wear that so that they look more like Gung Fu teachers. Makes you look more knowledgable. Nothing makes you look less professional than a pair of knee shorts and wife beaters.

Chiang

[Wayfaring]

Nothing makes you look less professional than a pair of knee shorts and wife beaters.

Darn. Slinks back to room to change workout clothes.

I actually like demos better where the person striking actually tries to hit the guy, as opposed to a short arm punch ending 18 inches from their head. They do better than that even on movie sets.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Darn. Slinks back to room to change workout clothes.

I actually like demos better where the person striking actually tries to hit the guy, as opposed to a short arm punch ending 18 inches from their head. They do better than that even on movie sets.

Well yea, when demonstrating you want to make it completely visible so that the instructee can see exactly what is taking place. It can be rather exagerated at times for this purpose. In the movies they spend a great deal of time rehursing these things. And in some cases you can not really see what has just taken place. That is why Bruce Lee and all these other guys look so good. It is mostly dance if you look at it that way. They rehurse constantly until they can get a good fluid movement and then start shooting. They might shoot it over and over until they get it right. Most of those guys probably couldn't fight their way out of a mess.
I will say this, and that is that those boys over there in Serbia or where ever do their WC a lot different from the way I do it. Not necessarily wrong I don't think, but different.
When training, I would have students stand with their punching arm extended to the others chin and then move back a couple of inches. This way they could toss punches with conviction without worrying about busting up their training partner. They don't last long when you go pile driving them in the face. This way you can throw the punch like you intend to hit.

[bakxierboxer]

Darn. Slinks back to room to change workout clothes.

I actually like demos better where the person striking actually tries to hit the guy, as opposed to a short arm punch ending 18 inches from their head. They do better than that even on movie sets.

I don't want to sound preachy, or anything.... but "short arm" is a "generally accepted" slang and military term for a penis...... generally used with reference to a visual inspection for STDs following a military Liberty/pass.
Google it, or look it up on Answers.com.

The "more acceptable" term in TCMA is usually "short hand" (vs "long hand")
(the "hand" usually being referenced is a "sau" or "technique")

[Wayfaring]

I don't want to sound preachy, or anything.... but "short arm" is a "generally accepted" slang and military term for a penis...... generally used with reference to a visual inspection for STDs following a military Liberty/pass.
Google it, or look it up on Answers.com.

The "more acceptable" term in TCMA is usually "short hand" (vs "long hand")
(the "hand" usually being referenced is a "sau" or "technique")

I just admitted to training in knee shorts and wife beaters. What exactly is it that gives you an impression I care about politically correct "more acceptable" terms?

If you have to do a demo and post it on the interw3bz, don't punch like a wussbag where a little girl could avoid it with a thicker shade of eyeliner.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I remember the short arm inspecions. It quite often led to some really annoying nick names too.

I suspect that most of these demo's involve new students and most of them would be fearful of actually striking the sifu. There is little doubt from the way some of these guys handle themselves and the way that they move that they are skilled fighers, it is just in demonstrating their skills that we see room for improvement.
I have only taught a hand full of people, but when one would accidently strike a training partner I would stop and set them back in their training. It was necessary so that they would not become overbaring or aggressive in his training methods. It is good to beat on the mooky man, but you can not strike your training partners.

[bakxierboxer]

... I have only taught a hand full of people, but when one would accidently strike a training partner I would stop and set them back in their training. It was necessary so that they would not become overbaring or aggressive in his training methods. It is good to beat on the mooky man, but you can not strike your training partners.

Different types of training.....
"Accidental" contact when "not appropriate" was always cause for heart-felt apologies.
OTOH, *purposeful* contact during many drills was equally cause for "thank you's"
(often preceded by "dam-mit"s and other expletives) and a sometimes fervent "let's try that again!"

[bakxierboxer]

I just admitted to training in knee shorts and wife beaters. What exactly is it that gives you an impression I care about politically correct "more acceptable" terms?

"Correct" terminology has nothing to do with being "politically correct".
It's either "right" or "wrong" ( with or without quotation marks)

If you have to do a demo and post it on the interw3bz, don't punch like a wussbag where a little girl could avoid it with a thicker shade of eyeliner.

Sooo.... does this mean that you're going to be posting a demo on the "interw3bz" of your short-arm techs while wearing your preferred garb and thickness/shade of eye-liner?
(sure to make an "impression" of some sort)

[anerlich]

Google it, or look it up on Answers.com.

You can do what you want, but I'm obviously not as interested in the subject as you appear to be ...

Sooo.... does this mean that you're going to be posting a demo on the "interw3bz" of your short-arm techs while wearing your preferred garb and thickness/shade of eye-liner?

Why, has this been a long-held wish of yours?

Wow, this thread sure went weird awful fast ...

[bakxierboxer]

You can do what you want, but I'm obviously not as interested in the subject as you appear to be ...

Oh?
"Been there! Done that!"?

Why, has this been a long-held wish of yours?

My main point is one of "accuracy".
Of course, this is less important to some people/styles.....