Watchmen

[Lamassu]

While the may be, he's not naked that often in the book. Mostly on Mars. The rest of the time he's in a black unitard or a black man thong/banana hammock.

Maybe you read a different version than I did, Dr. Manhattan was clothed more times in the movie than in the comic mini-series. This is Alan Moore we're talking about, if you grab a handful of his comics, you'll see boy parts and girl parts aplenty.

[doug maverick]

movie. just watched this film last night ok here is my review:


there were plenty things to like aout watchmen, the visuals the action scenes and the general story was all great. the thing i hated the most about the film were the fact that i really didnt get a feel for all the characters and that is zack snyders failure as a director, i mean he is known as a "visionary" which is filmaker talk for above par hack, so i wasnt expecting much but seriously the onecharcter we should have all felt for who was thrown inour faces was roschach and we he died the audience should have been either in tears or outraged. but it was nothing not even a blanch it was like so what, i looked at other audiences faces and there was not even a stir. because while you my have liked this character snider didnt give us a chance to feel for him, here was a character who had to watch his mom getting porked by every tom **** and harry, who was drastically mentally disturbed, who admittedly took the law in his own hand and killed his enemies and you know what we liked him for it, but not enough to care when he died. next character was silk spectre II another character you should have cared about and been amazed when you found out that the comedian was her father, but once again it was like who cares. now the comedian he was the only character that you did feel emotion for, cause it was like what the **** makes this man a superhero, this guy kills anything that moves good or bad he is a ****ing sociopath that should've been locked up in a insane asylum somewhere, i mean he tried to rape his on teammate for Christ sake. and then there is dr.manhatten, who was so far removed from humanity that you shouldnt have felt anything for him but when you see that scene where his ex girl comes in with cance you do in fact feel for him and ill give snyder that. someone called this the citizen kane of super hero films, an i would say that is a gross exaggeration. this was what it was a good action film with a good story, tat wasnt about good guys vs. bad guys but about sacrificing for the greater good, its the answer to a question. if 100 people were about to die and you can save them but you have to kill one person would you do it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

movie. just watched this film last night ok here is my review:


there were plenty things to like aout watchmen, the visuals the action scenes and the general story was all great. the thing i hated the most about the film were the fact that i really didnt get a feel for all the characters and that is zack snyders failure as a director, i mean he is known as a "visionary" which is filmaker talk for above par hack, so i wasnt expecting much but seriously the onecharcter we should have all felt for who was thrown inour faces was roschach and we he died the audience should have been either in tears or outraged. but it was nothing not even a blanch it was like so what, i looked at other audiences faces and there was not even a stir. because while you my have liked this character snider didnt give us a chance to feel for him, here was a character who had to watch his mom getting porked by every tom **** and harry, who was drastically mentally disturbed, who admittedly took the law in his own hand and killed his enemies and you know what we liked him for it, but not enough to care when he died. next character was silk spectre II another character you should have cared about and been amazed when you found out that the comedian was her father, but once again it was like who cares. now the comedian he was the only character that you did feel emotion for, cause it was like what the **** makes this man a superhero, this guy kills anything that moves good or bad he is a ****ing sociopath that should've been locked up in a insane asylum somewhere, i mean he tried to rape his on teammate for Christ sake. and then there is dr.manhatten, who was so far removed from humanity that you shouldnt have felt anything for him but when you see that scene where his ex girl comes in with cance you do in fact feel for him and ill give snyder that. someone called this the citizen kane of super hero films, an i would say that is a gross exaggeration. this was what it was a good action film with a good story, tat wasnt about good guys vs. bad guys but about sacrificing for the greater good, its the answer to a question. if 100 people were about to die and you can save them but you have to kill one person would you do it?

Its the one issue I had with the book, you;d think that Dr.M would have figured out that the MEANS justify the ends, not the other way around.

[doug maverick]

it was an interesting conundrum, one that even now i cant really answer and hope to never be in such a situation.

[SimonM]

Its the one issue I had with the book, you;d think that Dr.M would have figured out that the MEANS justify the ends, not the other way around.

The thing is that Dr. M's ethical decision gets tangled into a predestination paradox as it is my understanding that he knows how things are going to turn out before they do.

So the question becomes whether his foreknowledge of future events causes him to go with the flow, regardless of the question of whether the ends justify the means, or is he playing out a pre-determined role?

As a tertiary question is he simply doing damage control for a situation that he has no desire to exercise godlike power to effect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing is that Dr. M's ethical decision gets tangled into a predestination paradox as it is my understanding that he knows how things are going to turn out before they do.

So the question becomes whether his foreknowledge of future events causes him to go with the flow, regardless of the question of whether the ends justify the means, or is he playing out a pre-determined role?

As a tertiary question is he simply doing damage control for a situation that he has no desire to exercise godlike power to effect.

There is no such thing as pre-determination, destiny yes, not pre-determination.

One may be destined to get run over by a car because he tends to cross the road when cars are coming, but its not pre-ordanined that he will.

[MasterKiller]

There is no such thing as pre-determination, destiny yes, not pre-determination.

One may be destined to get run over by a car because he tends to cross the road when cars are coming, but its not pre-ordanined that he will.

[beowulf]
Fate often saves an undoomed man if his courage is good.
[/beowulf]

[SimonM]

There is no such thing as pre-determination, destiny yes, not pre-determination.

One may be destined to get run over by a car because he tends to cross the road when cars are coming, but its not pre-ordanined that he will.

The predestination paradox is a situation in speculative fiction in which a character is aware that certain actions he undertakes will result in a specific result far in advance of the action. It's a tool used by authors to raise questions over the nature of destiny and free will.

Best example: Donny Darko
Worst example: Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure

Within the contex of that particularly literary tool events are predetermined if the paradox is resolved by the fulfillment of the predicted events as predicted. Events are not predetermined if the events, as predicted, do not come to pass.

[KC Elbows]

I dunno, in both the comic and the movie, Dr. Manhattan's reason for changing his mind is Laurie's story and the miraculousness of it, given that, honestly, her character was intended to be a vacuous former starlet who became the kept woman for one(sort of) man, untimately becoming the love interest of another, rich, man, who shared her danger kink and was human.

Dr. Manhattan was clearly a complication in human events. He did solve the pressing problem by leaving. Revealing all the world of truth to everyone was well beyond his ability to convey in any way that would help humans. Leaving was the right course. Additionally, he ruined Ozymandius victory, by pointing out that "nothing ever ends." He foiled Ozymandius by pointing out that, despite being the ideal human, Ozymandius' judgment was only human.

[dnovice]

i guess i'll be the devils advocate since everyone liked the movie.

i didn't read the comic book so the lack of character depth made the movie suck. From what i hear the people that like the movie are guys that have already read the comic strip, ie people that know the characters. There was way too much going on and little depth, it was classic surface scratching.

[doug maverick]

i guess i'll be the devils advocate since everyone liked the movie.

i didn't read the comic book so the lack of character depth made the movie suck. From what i hear the people that like the movie are guys that have already read the comic strip, ie people that know the characters. There was way too much going on and little depth, it was classic surface scratching.

actually not everyone liked it. you should read some of the stuff. said and others.

[KC Elbows]

Spoiler alert.

Actually, I saw it twice, all with people who had never read the comic. My wife was the only one who didn't like it, not because it wasn't good, but because she finds violence unsettling.

I liked it in one way, but one major thing made it pale beside the comic: the fight scenes. The fight scenes were very similar to the sort of choreography in the new Batman movies, which is fine in that context. But the fight scenes in the comic, and especially their approach to violence, was only really well achieved in a scene that was done differently in the movie: when Rorschach kills the child killer. Before he does it, you can hear his breathing, and it's frightening because of how frightened it sounded, so that the action was a moment that held some dread, not fun.

The fight in the alleyway was stylistically okay, the comic and the movie approach it as a thrill ride for the two, though the movie seemed over the top in this fight, but I'd have to look at the comic to see if they were trying to catch every frame and the translation was just off.

However, the fight between Comedian and Ozymandius had annoying parts that completely seemed to lose the point that they were not superhuman. The characters in the comic are referred to as costumed heroes, not super heroes.

And the fight with Ozymandius, Rorschach, and Nite Owl, was a let down. In the comic, before the gunshot, Ozymandius is not doing any sort of acrobatics in order to subdue the two, it's child's play, he is the supreme human after all. No exertion, just a straightforward brutal beatdown with a monologue. In the movie, he does like a twenty foot standing jump, which, again, misses the whole point of the comic. Parts matched, like the bullet thing, but again, the whole point got lost: no one is a match for Ozymandius, he simply has greater skill than every character, and such single minded purpose that, even though his vanity is tied up in his goals, in how he achieves those goals he is perfectly efficient. Having the fight being this "Hero A punches, now Villain B punches" sort of thing is so far off from the comic. I'm trying to remember if either Rorschach or Nite Owl actually get off a single attempted move in the whole fight in the comic; generally, while the two were starting to get to the point of throwing a punch, they were eating fist, or foreign object, what have you.

In the choreography, there were moves that I thought well suited to how fighting is dramatic in the Watchmen, like Ozymandius' flare for tossing people down into objects, but the decision to over choreograph was unfortunate, and the decision to make the costumed heroes occasionally superhuman was baffling.

I liked the movie, love the comic, I'd say that, while the movie missed important points, I will probably continue to appreciate where it did get things right: Rorschach, Comedian, Nite Owl. The Black Freighter section was really good, I look forward to seeing it in the DVD release.

[GeneChing]

Exclusive: HBO Eyeing ‘Watchmen’ TV Series from Zack Snyder
by Dave Trumbore 2 hours ago



In 2009, during the early days of the current wave of superhero cinema, Zack Snyder brought Alan Moore’s acclaimed comic book limited series Watchmen to life for Warner Bros. Moore’s work is a beast of interconnected and referential storylines, creating quite a challenge for Snyder while making it all the more impressive that he pulled the film off as well as he did. While the feature did fairly well with critics, it wasn’t a runaway hit at the box office; many credited this result to the unwieldy nature of the story, which would conceivably be better suited for a serial adaptation.

It’s with that in mind that we report that Snyder has been meeting with HBO to talk about a Watchmen TV series. Our sources tell us that the meetings about adapting the DC Comics property have taken place, but unfortunately we don’t have any details as to whether this would be a prequel series, a re-imagining of the events of the Watchmen story itself, or a sequel series.



It’s also worth noting that HBO is notoriously difficult to predict until a series has a hard release date. For example, they couldn’t reach a budget compromise with David Fincher for his Utopia series, and shut down the production of Fincher’s half-hour comedy series that he was developing simultaneously. Clout and/or popularity doesn’t automatically mean a greenlight, as further evidenced by the network famously passing on Noah Baumbach‘s star-studded The Corrections pilot.

So while we know that meetings about a Watchmen TV series have taken place, nothing has been greenlit as of this writing. But with Game of Thrones‘ end looming in the next couple of years and original drama programming in short supply, surely HBO is looking for that next big hit. Producing a Warner Bros. property – especially one as potentially huge as Watchmen – under their shared Time Warner parental umbrella sounds like a solid move.

Again, as of this writing, all we know is that Snyder is meeting with HBO to talk about a Watchmen series; any details beyond that point are educated guesses on our part.

Enter Before Watchmen, a 2012 prequel series of comic books from DC Comics. These eight character-centric limited series (and one one-shot) served as background for Moore’s original 1986 12-issue series, and it stands to reason they could very well be the stories that Snyder intends on bringing to HBO as a TV prequel series. If this is indeed the plan, this should come as great news to fans out there who wanted to know more about such characters as Silk Spectre, Comedian, Nite Owl, Ozymandias, Rorschach, and Dr. Manhattan.



Initial comparisons of this plan obviously point to Marvel’s TV wing of their own cinematic universe, folding in ABC’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Agent Carter, but more relevant is their partnership with Netflix for The Defenders, a series of shows focusing on Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist, which will spill over into each other’s worlds and onto the big screen as well. (The Defenders vs Watchmen: Any takers?)

It’s unclear at this point if Snyder is indeed planning to produce and adapt the Before Watchmen series, or if he’s pitching an original interpretation of available Watchmen material. We’re not sure if this new project envisions character-centric series that would each stand on their own (except for the narrative tie-ins to Snyder’s 2009 film) or if it will start out as individual stories that eventually cross-pollinate, following the Marvel plan. What’s unlikely is any kind of crossover into the current DCCU, as Nite Owl/Dr. Manhattan meeting their meta selves in Batman/Superman would like annihilate the cinematic universe.

Regardless of the minutiae of how a Watchmen series might come to be, I’m thrilled that this possibility exists at all. I’m less familiar with Before Watchmen than I am with Moore’s original work – if you’re in the same boat, check out Tommy’s review of some of the initial issues back in 2012 – but the chance to see these characters brought to life again in a meaningful way is an exciting one. (We have yet to hear any comments from Moore, who turned down the rights to Watchmen in 2010 when DC offered them to him, contingent upon doing prequel and sequel stories. Personally, I’d rather have creative control than no control at all.)

This would make a better series than the movie...

[GeneChing]

Watchmen HBO Series Begins Production
Damon Lindelof has begun production on a Watchmen HBO series.
Mike Cecchini
Sep 19, 2017



With The Leftovers having wrapped its final season to wild critical acclaim, Damon Lindelof is sticking around HBO to develop a Watchmen TV series. Yes, you read that right. Watchmen is finally getting the prestige cable drama that fans have wanted for as long as prestige cable drama has been a thing.

Lindelof's vision is apparently unrelated to a Watchmen series discussed by Zack Snyder (who directed the film version) and HBO back in 2015. It's not clear how far those particular talks got, or what the actual plan for it was. After all, with Snyder involved, it seems unlikely it would have been a re-adaptation of the Alan Moore/Dave Gibbons graphic novel. According to Variety, the Lindelof version is "starting over from scratch" and has nothing to do with those previous discussions.

After some speculation about how far along these talks all got, it seems that things are now safely underway for the Watchmen TV series, with Mr. Lindelof posting a familiar trophy on Instagram...

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Day One.

The big question, then, is just what will this new series be? Is it another adaptation of the graphic novel? Zack Snyder's 2009 adaptation has its defenders, and visually it's certainly faithful enough to the comics, but it was admittedly limited by the constraints of a movie runtime. A TV series could spend more time exploring the flashbacks to the Minutemen era, or fleshing out some of the supplementary text material that happens in between the comic chapters. That Nite Owl trophy sure raises my Minutemen speculation antennae a little bit.

In 2013, DC Comics released a series of Watchmen prequels, appropriately titled Before Watchmen, from an assortment of creators not named Moore or Gibbons. They were met with what can charitably be described as a mixed response from fans and critics. Nevertheless, there's plenty of existing material to fuel a Watchmen series for several seasons. Then again, Lindelof and friends might not have to delve into the spinoffs to flesh out the graphic novel. There's enough going on in any one of the original's twelve chapters to fuel multiple episodes.

Watchmen writer Alan Moore has been notoriously outspoken about his disapproval for all adaptations and spinoffs, and that's unlikely to change here. But for the rest of us, the chance to see this series given another chance at the screen, perhaps one that's a little less stylized than the movie version, is certainly appealing. There have also been rumblings of an R-rated animated movie, but hopefully that won't come to pass. After all, you can't really improve on the source material, and whenever anyone messes with it, they're only met with diminishing returns. In fact, maybe you should just read the book instead.

We'll update this with new information as we get it.

Who watches the Watchmen?