qixing & changhuxinyimen

[GeneChing]

That's one of the things I find really fascinating about Shaolin. There's this core of forms and then there's variations. Even with the BSL there are lyrical variations. Each solid variation holds some unique wisdom worth exploring. I've learned dahong from three different masters and each had their take on it. Decheng's and Yanfei's yinshougun are very different. I enjoy them both and practice them alternatively as the mood takes me (although I just do Yanfei's in his class, of course.)

I should mention that I'm really getting into both forms. I can see where there's all sorts of stuff going on in them. I've always been fascinated by qixing because the postures are so different. I doubt I could apply a lot of the finger jabs since I no longer train my fingers. There was a day when I could do fingertip push-ups with clapping in between (there's footage of me demonstrating that in Wing Lam's Chin Na Training Methods and Tools. But I haven't done much fingertip training since beyond working the keyboard (and that's only good for forum fu ) Changhuxinyimen is brilliant in composition. It's like several difficult ideas, linked together with this rather long refrain that always ends in variations - a classic pedagogical structure for form transmission - then it ends in a reversal and some dahongquan variations. What's more, that refrain echoes the most flamboyant move of qixing, same momentum only carried differently through the body. At least, that's the way it seems with our version. I can see I'll have years of fun unraveling these two.

[GeneChing]

I've been working qixing a lot lately, trying to get that energy down. It's a great form. I love it's energy, especially with the elbow strikes. I've been lax with changhuxinyimen, and just this week, Yanfei wanted to see it. Well, it was totally messed up. I kept falling back into qixing. I've experienced the same cross-up with xiaohong and dahong. If you focus on one, the other goes to pot. Got to work them both if you want to keep them both. I can seem the pedigogical device for making qixing so short and changhuxinyimen so long. It's especially interesting that the composition of changhuxinyimen has so many twists at the very end - quite logical really.

[LFJ]

It's especially interesting that the composition of changhuxinyimen has so many twists at the very end - quite logical really.

yeah, its great. not my favorite form to do, but definitely one of my favorites to watch. i'd probably like to do it more if i had a mirror wall to watch myself in. its such a neat looking form. very powerful.

[sha0lin1]

I haven't learned Changhuxinyimen yet but that is an awesome form, thanks for the vids and discusions.

LFJ,

Sometime back you and I had a discusion about Shaolin Tai Chi. I found the form on you tube and this was the form I was taught albeit with a few variations. Check it out, is this what you were talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_70tWRPbvQ

[GeneChing]

That looks like Xu Dezhen performing, but I can't quite tell because the resolution is too low. We just worked with Xu for the Qigong Symposium and Training Workshop. I think he holds a higher degree from some Sports University. While he dons robes and has a Shaolin name (see The Gold Mountain Monks: 38 Shaolin Immigrants to the San Francisco Bay Area By Chen Xinghua and Gigi Oh in our 2007 November/December issue), I suspect much of his training came from the U, not Shaolin.

[LFJ]

LFJ,

Sometime back you and I had a discusion about Shaolin Tai Chi. I found the form on you tube and this was the form I was taught albeit with a few variations. Check it out, is this what you were talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_70tWRPbvQ

i saw that video quite a while back. its not the shaolin mianquan i was talking about.

that looks like an interestingly stylized version of chen style taijiquan. there are many abbreviated forms combining the core of laojia yilu and erlu. most of the chen masters have their own. but still very distinctly chen style. thats what this looks like.

shaolin mianquan is different though. it doesnt begin with the familiar chen style opening up to the "single whip" posture, as this video does.

really it shares a lot with taizu changquan, which chen style taijiquan does also, but its visibly different from chen style.

i did link to a couple videos of it, didnt i?

[Eugene]

Dropping in on a old thread

Is there any reason for Zhanghu Yinximen, (wich I like alot since I have seen the video of Liu Baoshan doing it) that he starts by going to the right instead of all the other sets from Songshan who go to the left , ( Except Taizu I believe )

I have noticed the guy who comments this video, is the same person as the video of mysterius Old Monk who did Da Tong Bi Quan.

[LFJ]

I have noticed the guy who comments this video, is the same person as the video of mysterius Old Monk who did Da Tong Bi Quan.

its a video series on the 10 famous songshan shaolin boxing sets.

[Eugene]

Thanks LFJ,

I watched them with great pleasure today !

is the following information correct, I can then use it.

Currently, there are a multitude of Shaolin Masters throughout the world as the Shaolin Temple gains the popularity and following of its historical past once again. In Henan Province, Ten Traditional Shaolin Boxing Masters have gained recognition and been commemorated: Cui Xiqi, Chen Chengwen, Chen Wujing, Fu Zhigan, Liu Baoshan, Liang Yiquan, Liu Zhenhai, Wang Changqing, Lian Heguan and Chen Jun.


The first name is of the Mysterius Tong Bi Master, ( Cui Xiqi )
through you idea of more videos, I found the name.

Btw this is a little weird, http://images.google.nl/images?sourc...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Are the first two guys the same, I have never seen Liang Yiquan with a beard.
The first pictures according to the words is Liang Yiquan and the second is Cui Xiqi ?

I dont know if this is the same guy from You Tubes Cui Xiqi, but he also has a beard.






Much greetings Eugene

[LFJ]

if you actually follow the link to the page hosting the picture, you'll find that caption is for another picture of liang yiquan, while that picture is actually titled "cui xiqi".

[RenDaHai]

Never got a chance to comment the first time this thread went up;

Chang Hu Xin Yi Men has two major translations, I am still not sure which is the most correct.

1. Defend the Heart and open the mind (hu-xin yi-men) long boxing. Means to stop from becoming emotionally involved in the combat and to keep the mind open and flexible so that answers can present themselves.

2. The long defensive boxing of the xin-yi school (xin-yi-men Chang-Hu-quan).

This form is certainly partenered with Qi XIng Quan, they share several short sequences, and both make use of the same hand position, which is not found so much in other forms.

Can't say much about the history, only that Tagou does these two forms very well, and only really does these two forms well.

There are several variations on chang hu, the main one (tagous) has 3 sections. I have seen a version with 5 sections and many versions with 1 or 2 sections. There are 2 major stylistic variations. One which uses hammers to strike with and the other that uses fists. This small variation makes for some quite different stances throughout the form. (tagous uses fists).

The hand used in Qixing is fantastic. It has many applications. When the thumb tries to move towards the little finger the palm closes up and forms an incredibly hard surface, feel it yourself. The fingers thus splayed can be used to grasp soemones hand without closing the fingers and committing yourself to a grab. The hand can also be use as a hook. It can also be used to protect the throat (palm towards throat, as in mural). It can be used to catch hits directly, like a baseball glove. It can be used to strike the opponant like tui zhang, it can also be used like a hammer, it can also be used by striking with the fingers directly. Doing so you musn't tense the fingers too much. Because the force is spread over a large area you needn't strengthen the fingers, it fits directly to the shape of someones face with the palm striking the chin.

On the history I can't help.... Some people have told me its a dengfeng form not a shaolin form.....

[RenDaHai]

QiXing and Changhuxinyimen are like mother and son fists WITHIN certain sects.

However QiXIngQuan is much older and originally unrelated.

QiXing has 3 roads. 2 of which I can confirm still exist. While Road 1 has 4 alternative versions, only 1 of which is on youtube.


The name may be older but the current Changhuxinyimen is derived from the XiaoHongQuan of Mogou Pai. (Mogou pai is a song shan sect). Mogou is itself a derivative of the XiYuan Pai and they also have a version of QiXing Quan road 1, which is completely different.

If you see the XiaoHongQuan you can see CHXYM but also how it relates to the current XHQ (if you have good eyes for technique).

I have sent you a PM with a link to a video I filmed of Mogou XHQ. Its a unlisted video and I prefer you keep it that way for now.

The performance style is different but you should be able to see the technique. Enjoy.

[RenDaHai]

i'm sure you have much to say on it. just, as a question, i may ask how do you say that it's Chang Hu Xin Yi Men that has been derived from this Mogou Pai form, and not vice versa? of course the technical contents, which link this form to the older forms and shen fa are a strong reason, but is there any other information like a historical piece or any folk story?

Well, yes you can see to some extent from the technique and also the relation to the current Xiao Hong Quan.

Also they have other forms. Even a Lao Hong Quan (which is effectively a second CHXYM).

All of which share a similarity to Hong Quan technique. The repeated section is more fundmental and important than that in CHXYM and it is easy to see how CHXYM could be derived from MPXHQ but not so easy the other way around.

Also in nearby places there are intermediate forms.

Also they have stories. They say over a century ago a great master from their village took their Kung Fu back to Shaolin Temple.

This would be consistant as CHXYM only exists in a few sects in Shaolin. Most of what you see comes from a distinct era.


My hypothesis is that ChangHuXinYiMen is an old name in Shaolin and I think it was a set of technique but perhaps not a form. When Mogou Pai XHQ was returned to shaolin there was no need to call it XHQ because that already existed. So they merged Mogou XHQ and QIXing QUan and Guandong quan with the technique from the xinyimen and created CHXYM, Qixing and guandong quan in their current popular forms.

QiXing quan in other sects in song shan is very different and bears no resemblance to CHXYM.


I need to research a little more and also learn the rest of Mogou Pai.

The surviving Mogou forms are XiaoHongQuan, QiXIngQuan, YunYang Quan, LaoHOngQuan, GuanXiQuan, LiuHeQuan, ChunQiuDaDao.