Stop B!tch'n...

[MightyB]

Ok- it's time to stop b!tch'n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn't work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But... here's the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu... well... kung fu.

I'll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring... realistic sparring, and scenarios... THE Catch... try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn't involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys's turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?

[KC Elbows]

kick, punch, throw, and seize, in whatever order works?

[SPJ]

kick and punch as entry

then end with throws.

most seizing moves are not allowed.

if you are good at punches then KO thru head.

if your kick is fast and hard enough, then KO the opponent on the head.

--

[MightyB]

I think we're falling into the same trap... or the same argument in a different thread.

Let's not be theoretical- let's talk real solutions- concrete statements on how to make kung fu work for more people, and work the way it should without giving it up.

Again- I believe in the KISS methodology. Too many techniques leads to confusion. A lot of times the same move is given a zillion different names and then it's almost taught like it's a new move when- if you grasp the original simplified version, you can apply it infinitely. Judo teaches in this way. 3 basic throws lead to a zillion variations. You can do 'em all if you learn the first 3. I say relate that to kung fu training.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The best way to do this would be to stick to the old School training methods. Basics, Single and two man drills, and live skill practice.

[KC Elbows]

Judo teaches in this way. 3 basic throws lead to a zillion variations. You can do 'em all if you learn the first 3. I say relate that to kung fu training.

One step in my form is a throw that can be applied in numerous angles and ways.

[wiz cool c]

For the last two years I have studied Bagua and Shuai Jiao. The Bagua has many throws in the system but they don't ever practice them. Just do them in the forms and the teacher will show you them maybe one or twice. Shuai Jiao is all about throws but every lesson we practice on a partner and do hard live sparring.

In the last two years I have had two chances to wrestle,[throws no ground work] with two pure kung fu guys that just started Shuai Jiao. Both where convinced there system has throws and can be used on the mat. Both cases the guys couldn't get off a throw and I was able to throw them 5 or 6 time in a a match that lasted maybe 4 minutes.

They both had good balance and strength which I credit to their kung fu training but couldn't use there styles throws against someone who practiced a combat sport style.

I know bagua has a form of sparring called Rou Shou but it is barely ever practiced. If the Bagua practioners where to practice regularly against a resistant opponent along with practicing the throws and locks with a partner more often I think Bagua can be very effective in fighting.

[KC Elbows]

I have found it useful in my own style to look at how other styles do the same things.

If five stylists all do some version of a fireman's carry, I like seeing them all and seeing the variations and the why for the variations. Kung fu forms tend to be broad enough to imply a lot of variations in a move, so it is always possible, and sometimes occurs, that I missed one.

Kung fu is all about knowing the opposition. Since I do a taoist art, it is essential that my style makes me a part of the fight, and ignorance of the opponent or their style prevents this from happening.

MMA fanboys and kung fu form faerie purists alike miss this, and assume far too much about what they think they are doing. The best professional fighters study their opponents in addition to training like mad, this can only aid their knowledge of how to apply their style.

Some people go from art to art presuming to know the deficiencies of the last art when they never learn to apply the art and so, fail to execute. Their failure might have been the teacher's error or the deficiency of the teacher's kung fu, but being taught nothing is not the same as having knowledge.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok- it's time to stop b!tch'n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn't work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But... here's the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu... well... kung fu.

I'll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring... realistic sparring, and scenarios... THE Catch... try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn't involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys's turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?

Reply]
Don't all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

Many Kung Fu teachers just give you the tools, and expect you to make them yours. It's not like a Training program where you are taught everything from the art, to how to train it, and drilled through every detail. I personally think it SHOULD be that way, and certianly the schools that can and do fight well are, but most Kung fu does not take it to that level, and that is the only problem I ever see.

[Mr Punch]

How can we get rid of unneccessary rubbish in kung fu and bring back/in more effective training methods?

Get rid of bullsh!t mindsets like this:

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

1) YOU don't know how effective it is cos you haven't used it have you RD? I mean pretty much any of it... in streetfights, in bars, on the door, on a battlefield, in the ring... maybe for helping your balance while you tie your shoelaces...? So your first point is moot, and thus part of the problem.

2) Saying it's technically diverse again means nothing. If the right methods aren't being used to practise these techniques, it's all just waving in the air... now, maybe it's two people waving in the air at each other, but it's still just waving in the air.

3) There's no such thing as the complete art. If you think there aren't deficiencies in your art you're part of the problem. The same goes for more modern sports based arts, and for MMA.

4) Saying that we need to practise how people in fu used to practise is also largely pipe-dreaming. Since most fuers no longer practise that way, there's no way of knowing what they did, so anything you do in that direction will be reinventing the wheel and therefore pointless.

Your 'find a good teacher' point works. And of course, testing yourself against other stylists: be prepared for a beating.

Otherwise in answer to the first post I think by now anyone who cares will know how to train realistically:

basics kiss resistance resistance resistance repeat ad infinitum.

[golden arhat]

Reply]
Don't all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that

[Shaolin Wookie]

so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn't mean it's wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground....so you don't lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they're not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn't mean it's shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. .....well....it is shaolin.


This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.

[MightyB]

This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.

I think you're right.

You want to know what prompted this thread? Seeing that d@mn Keysi Fighting Method video and realising that people studying a Made-Up art train more realistically than the average kung fu-er. We're more likely to see people fighting and winning in mma with kfm than kung fu, and that's pretty fugg'n sad. It actually peeves me off. Heck- half of the CQB that's out there is made up and frigg'n has better training methodology than a supposeable war art with a deep history.

Here's more solutions- San Shou has to be taught as a base before any "traditional" kung fu training. Once you get the basics of really fighting down, you should be able to ad realistic chin na, increase your variety of kicking and striking angles, and develop more complex throwing.

[Ray Pina]

No style is complete. In fact, I find great value in having a few different people to learn BJJ from. Everyone has their specialty, their own perspective.

Part of Kung Fu's problem is getting over this idea of the unbeatable master that knows it all. You want to be a great fighter, go spend time with as many great fighters as you can find and keep your eyes and ears open. Keep your mouth shut and just train.

[golden arhat]

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn't mean it's wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground....so you don't lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they're not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn't mean it's shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. .....well....it is shaolin.


This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.

OMG DID YOU READ WHAT ROYAL DRAGON SAID AT ALL!????


"I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies."

there

now is ground fighting found within the system called wing chun because one teacher teaches it? no.

is not having ground fighting taught in your system a deficency ? yes.

there fore what i said makes complete sense


"It doesn't mean it's wing chun" but i said "oh so wing chun teaches groundfighting"

some people who teach wing chun also teach groundfighting but ITS NOT WING CHUN.

which means that wing chun is deficient (along with alot of other arts) in that it does not teach groundfighting.

so STFU