Stop B!tch'n...

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think what makes most people start doubting their gung fu is that they just take too big a bite and simply can not chew it up. Most systems of gung fu require you be in great physical condition to excell. And until you are, you will not go very far. There is no secrets involved that will make you a fighting master. You have to work very hard. And the first step is to learn the principals of your chosen system and learn them step at a time. Develop your fighting skills a step at a time too. Learn them well and complete before moving on to the next systems of techniques. Even shadow boxing will develop your fighting skills. I also think the thing to do would be to look into the different skills and match them up with your own physical abilities and expectations. If you are not going to ever be capable of achieving a really high level of physical fitness they you are simply ****ing into the wind.
When I was quite young and in school, I knew individuals that could not even spell words like gung fu or karate and probably never even heard of it before, but they had a few fighting skills that they had trained hard and could apply smoothly. Their skills were honed by application. They were tough guys and had reputations for being skilled fighters. These skills were actually limited to a half dozen moves that were well polished.

Chiang

[Mr Punch]

How can we get rid of unneccessary rubbish in kung fu and bring back/in more effective training methods?

Get rid of bullsh!t mindsets like this:

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

1) YOU don't know how effective it is cos you haven't used it have you RD? I mean pretty much any of it... in streetfights, in bars, on the door, on a battlefield, in the ring... maybe for helping your balance while you tie your shoelaces...? So your first point is moot, and thus part of the problem.

2) Saying it's technically diverse again means nothing. If the right methods aren't being used to practise these techniques, it's all just waving in the air... now, maybe it's two people waving in the air at each other, but it's still just waving in the air.

3) There's no such thing as the complete art. If you think there aren't deficiencies in your art you're part of the problem. The same goes for more modern sports based arts, and for MMA.

4) Saying that we need to practise how people in fu used to practise is also largely pipe-dreaming. Since most fuers no longer practise that way, there's no way of knowing what they did, so anything you do in that direction will be reinventing the wheel and therefore pointless.

Your 'find a good teacher' point works. And of course, testing yourself against other stylists: be prepared for a beating.

Otherwise in answer to the first post I think by now anyone who cares will know how to train realistically:

basics kiss resistance resistance resistance repeat ad infinitum.

[golden arhat]

Reply]
Don't all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that

[Shaolin Wookie]

so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn't mean it's wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground....so you don't lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they're not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn't mean it's shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. .....well....it is shaolin.


This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.

[MightyB]

This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.

I think you're right.

You want to know what prompted this thread? Seeing that d@mn Keysi Fighting Method video and realising that people studying a Made-Up art train more realistically than the average kung fu-er. We're more likely to see people fighting and winning in mma with kfm than kung fu, and that's pretty fugg'n sad. It actually peeves me off. Heck- half of the CQB that's out there is made up and frigg'n has better training methodology than a supposeable war art with a deep history.

Here's more solutions- San Shou has to be taught as a base before any "traditional" kung fu training. Once you get the basics of really fighting down, you should be able to ad realistic chin na, increase your variety of kicking and striking angles, and develop more complex throwing.

[Ray Pina]

No style is complete. In fact, I find great value in having a few different people to learn BJJ from. Everyone has their specialty, their own perspective.

Part of Kung Fu's problem is getting over this idea of the unbeatable master that knows it all. You want to be a great fighter, go spend time with as many great fighters as you can find and keep your eyes and ears open. Keep your mouth shut and just train.

[MightyB]

Make boxing gloves and headgear standard issue. Use these to work two-man cooperative boxing drills.... bridging right to striking, or whatever your style's specialty is. If these drills are not first nature to you, you should not be teaching.

Increase intensity of drills.

Remove headgear.

Remove gloves.


Put gear back on and fight (not spar) but with super fast stoppage by supervisor. Supervisor needs to be able to read what's happening at point of engagement.

After 18 months of this training, everyone will become more more comfortable with the situation. Everyone will understand the dangers of certain positions, scenarios. They will respect them.

Now people can pair up to light spar. If egos make it too competitive now there is a forum: fighting.

Not saying this is how it has to be, but it has to be sort of like this. Don't show it to them in a form. Show them the principle and how it works and make them work it.


This type of training will take care of the other big problem with Kung Fu... talking $hit. There's never so much talking during what should be training as in Kwoons. Stories about the good old days. Stories of how this style is superior to that style AND WHY Lots of talk.

If you train this way you'd be embarrassed by the talk. Because you now know what fighting is: a combination of technical skill, physical ability and will. Talk plays no roll. Shut up and train.

Good Post-

[golden arhat]

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn't mean it's wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground....so you don't lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they're not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn't mean it's shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. .....well....it is shaolin.


This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.

OMG DID YOU READ WHAT ROYAL DRAGON SAID AT ALL!????


"I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies."

there

now is ground fighting found within the system called wing chun because one teacher teaches it? no.

is not having ground fighting taught in your system a deficency ? yes.

there fore what i said makes complete sense


"It doesn't mean it's wing chun" but i said "oh so wing chun teaches groundfighting"

some people who teach wing chun also teach groundfighting but ITS NOT WING CHUN.

which means that wing chun is deficient (along with alot of other arts) in that it does not teach groundfighting.

so STFU

[David Jamieson]

pure groundfighting systems are deficient as well inasmuch as they don't teach boxing or kicking aspects.

but then, by that measure, it is fair to say that all styles in and of themselves are deficient due to the fact that they don't deal with all possible ranges of fighting.

This will change as we see the emergence of styles that have development methods in all ranges.

[golden arhat]

pure groundfighting systems are deficient as well inasmuch as they don't teach boxing or kicking aspects.

but then, by that measure, it is fair to say that all styles in and of themselves are deficient due to the fact that they don't deal with all possible ranges of fighting.

This will change as we see the emergence of styles that have development methods in all ranges.

of coyurse pure groundfighting systems are deficient

thats the whole point of mixed martial arts
to mix it up and not let yourself become deficient

neither RD or SW seem to get that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

now is ground fighting found within the system called wing chun because one teacher teaches it? no.

is not having ground fighting taught in your system a deficency ? yes.

there fore what i said makes complete sense
:

If you go to a wing chun school and a teacher teaches you groundfighting, then yes, it's wing chun. Why? It says so on the sign outside. It's his wing chun, and you're in his world. Who gives a **** what it's called on the larger scale. It could be BJJ or wrestling. And BJJ and wrestling are other things entirely if you trace them back a century. They don't have a copyright on groundfighting. They stole it from Japanese Jujitsu and Judo and modified it, or from the greeks and the romans and the scythians and the teucerians and the trojans and whatnot. So BJJ isn't BJJ. Do they make distinctions in nomenclature between those moves of japanese origin and the Gracies? Of course not. Why bother? LOL.

People hung up on names and dates and nomenclature......

Besides. Everything's shaolin, young grasshopper. My groundfighting is cooler than yours. Why? Because I can butterfly twist into an armbar.

[golden arhat]

so i guess windows and os10 are the same?


no they do things differently

wing chun with ground fighting is just that
"wing chun with ground fighting"

not wing chun

if you go up to someone and say what is wing chun they'l probably say a)a chinese restaurant or b) small straight line punches based system based on linear principles


no system is complete thats the point, thats why mma exists

[Shaolin Wookie]

MMA is incomplete. It doesn't have the 5 animals, and I'm not allowed to steal the peach.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's why your line of reasoning is retarded:

1. it does not allow for innovation. IF I study Wing Chun and I implement some ground work, and I use Wing Chun principles, it's not wing chun by your standard. It's just groundwork. It's BJJ. It's Wrestling. It's MMA, this transgendered, transnational, nihilistic megalithic thing that encompasses all martial arts, much like Wal-Mart encompasses toilet brushes by offering all kinds of different shapes and sizes to fit your everyday needs. Specialists know they offer crappy goods manufactured in Korea. Thing is, if I study Wing Chun, and Wing Chun alone, it's friggin' Wing Chun. It's not something else. If only for the fact the sign outside says "Wing Chun". According to you, it loses its Wing Chuniness because other people are doing groundwork better, by your opinion, and as their primary purpose. Well, TKD kicks more than any other art, so Muay Thai is half Tae Kwon Do, and so is Karate, and all CMA's, including Wing Chun. Oh, and MMA is Tae Kwon Do.

2. Every art has groundwork. It might not be on their cirriculum as teh main course, but they'll have the same principles, because every art knows the armbar, and the wrist lock, and the triangle. They're martial positions everybody outside of TKD know, and I'll bet even they know. I took a free week at a Combat Hapkido school. It was free. I asked about groundwork. He was happy to show me Hapkido locks on the ground. It looked just like BJJ and JJJ and wrestling. Why? Well, if you use the same principles of locking and Chin-na on the ground, it looks like those arts. Why? Because that's all they are.

3. If we apply your principle of nomenclature broadly, all religions are encompassed by Scientology, because Lord Xenu programmed us with religious iconography before he stuffed us into the volcano and shoved a nuke up our........well, probably your.....ass.

4. The main reason you're wrong: Dude, you're like 16.

5. The reason you know you're wrong: I'm John Takeshi, and I said so, beeyotch.

[Ray Pina]

Wing chun is based on Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Fuk Sau... all three positions have extended arms. That will get your finished on the ground quick fast.

I think it's awesome that each style has its specialty. Pick up what you want.

Don't use hammer thinking for a screw. Don't use a computer when you need a car,

Nothing wrong with saying Wing Chun provides me with what I need to feel safe standing, but let me go to an expert to learn some solid ground principles.

And even then, that game is constantly evolving. Good guys won't get caught in straight Kamoras or Americans. They've seen it thousands of times. You evolve the set up.