Theory of CMA (communism) vs MMA (free market system)

[mantis108]

Been studying economics lately.

Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China's recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.

Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.

Well, Communism in China is based on Marxism-Leninism of which central economic planning is key. The problem specific to CMA is that the doctrine of democratic centralism, which encourage grassroot participation was used as a tool to drawn out the educated and the skilled citizen whom are then persecuted. Those who left to oversee the centralizing of CMA were not intelligent enough to even discern the difference between martial sports and martial arts. Hack, they don't even have a clue what's the difference between dancing and Kung Fu forms. It's like asking a farm tracker's driver to design a concept car. That's why modern Wushu is FUBAR to the Nth degree!!!!! Then you have those Communist collaborators who have formal traditional CMA training that thought it would be a good idea to just do as they are told. That's why we have such a fiasco these days.

This is just what is on the surface. The real philosophical issue is the Dialectical Materialism that denies human needs, desires, and endeavors. Not only is Dialectical Materialism foreign to Chinese thoughts it is also contradictory to the most central principle of TCMA - moral. Morality is autonomy of will. Ancient Chinese understood this very well and have spent thousands of years working on it. But no thanks to people like Mao and others who really have little to no understanding of Chinese culture (ironic - I know) that they got duped into believing heteronomy of will that is the preaching of Dialectical Materialism.

Well, idiocy is not a crime per se but it can be a deadly Sin as seen in the PRC. I just hope that one day the disease of idiocy amongst the "politicians" all over the world could be cured.

[WinterPalm]

I don't think Chinese Martial Arts had problems in the past, particularly before the advent and wide circulation of the gun... China has a wonderful history of military proficiency. It brought us the Art of War, flame throwers, gun powder and some would argue the foundation for a multitude of modern empty hand methods.

Kung Fu's "problem", from a martial art standpoint, is that it stopped being functional as a whole. Sure, there are schools and clans that may be keeping it real, but that's not the rule, it's the exception.

And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They're all related.

If you train with a significant warm up -- not to waste time, but to improve attributes and ability ... drill with resistance, then spar for multiple rounds with multiple partners... you're going to become a lean, mean, fighting machine. A good number of those guys want to go out to fight. It pushes everyone in the gym. It raises performance.

I agree with this post but what I was saying is that much of the TCMA we see in North America came from before the Communist party and the cultural revolution.
If anything, China has been quite closed off historically, and they may have something to do with it. But I think the digression of TCMA is based on people no longer fighting/having to fight.

[lkfmdc]

Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called "Feudalism" ie traditional Chinese culture and values.....

Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc...

[Ray Pina]

I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.

Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.

I can name several Kung Fu schools on Long Island and in NYC that I would say, and of course this is all relative to one's perspective and standard, that are very far from meeting these standards.

The standard would appear something like this: guys who have been training for 2 years or more are ripped! Six packs! Strong backs and shoulders. Strong legs. After class people are laying around gassed.

Sorry, I'm familiar with a lot of Kung Fu schools in NY and the students aren't like this.

As for fighting standard.... free play is daily. Not weekly or monthly. There's no time to waist on forms. It's conditioning and drilling technique. Drilling attributes. Then banging. Guys in the gym have fought. Guys in the gym are preparing for a fight. This sort of environment is contagious and pushes everyone.

I think to save time a better question might be what Kung Fu school in NY does train this way, with the exception of Coach Ross' (does he consider his school a kwoon?)?

[Ray Pina]

not to sideline the conversation, but ...I understand the reference to ch'i as mysticism, but altars and insence are to pay respect to the founders and past masters of the style. Guan Gung is honored for his chivalry,morality, courage, and virtue. He is a role model. It is not worship so much as it is respect.
Certainly not mysticism.

I honestly see it as marketing. In the states, how many of your practitionars are Buddhist or Confucionist? In Christianity and Judaism that would be idle worship. And I think it's a distraction.

You know how crazy these wanna-be Shaolin monk types are. This sort of thing just feeds that behavior.

Everyone talks about all these moral aspects that are supposed to be taught in martial arts but it's not real. Those lessons are learned via proper training.

You come in and you sweat and you work hard. You gain respect for your classmates and yourself. You improve. Your standards for yourself improve. You become even better and gain confidence. That peace of self is reflected in the way you treat others.

It's this grandious idea that somehow

[Ray Pina]

Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called "Feudalism" ie traditional Chinese culture and values.....

Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc...

This is exactly right. And the more I train I look at it as sound business practice in the U.S. Most of these sifu can not compete in producing quality fighters compared to boxing, kick boxing and MMA gyms. So they play up the Chinese angle.

This in turn adds fuel to the fire because CMA doesn't attract fighters. Or can't hold onto them.

[Black Jack II]

What Kung Fu schools have you been going to? I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.

Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.

Are you high or just wanting to start a side line conversation?

You know for a FACT that the above statement is not true.

[Rockwood]

Ray, I think you are confusing martial art for sport.

In other words, sport has very specific parameters. Martial art has things in it that can be useful in very broad parameters.

Think of soldiers in wartime. Or farmers, or elderly/sickly people seeking a way of improving health. Chinese martial arts have been used for many, many different purposes over the years.

Martial art can be applied to sport as you suggest. CMA contains many useful things within it, and sport fighting is one of them. A guy like Sifu Ross uses CMA for ring fights. Others use it for other purposes.

Most of those purposes are relevant, let others do what they will. They aren't seeking the same goals you are. Why try to force them to fit in your box of what you think CMA is supposed to be? This is art, there is not an objective standard!

In sport there is one specific standard for that sport. For art the value is in the eye of the beholder and if some kid in a strip mall is loving his new green belt then don't begrudge him!

-Jess O'Brien

[mantis108]

Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called "Feudalism" ie traditional Chinese culture and values.....

Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc...

Well, I have nothing personal against you, IKFMDC, but you just sounded like one of those CPC maniacs even right down to the term "Feudalism". I understand where you are coming from but please check your facts what Feudalism really means in ancient China. It's not the same Feudalism that west had. BTW, what political system doesn't fit "include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc..." Like the "democracy" of US of A is holier than any other political system? Please....

Which nation don't have exaggerated sense of importance? It's like saying what holds Pankration back has to do with Greece's exaggerated sense of importance (or lack there of), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc.... So it became a watered down version (ie Collegian wrestling). That kind of argument just doesn't make sense.

It is easy to use label to create a sense of shortcoming of an art or a system. This is exactly what the PRC did. I can't believe you actually bought it from the PRC people who sell you the San Shou thing. Oh well, I guess I gave you too much credit.

[lkfmdc]

Dude, I have a Master's Degree in Chinese history from the Elliott School of International Affairs, I know better than ANYONE here that the term "Feudalism" isn't correct for China (they never had a feudal system). But as I ALREADY noted, that is what it has been called none the less.....

The idea that traditional Chinese cultural traits has held back CHINA AS A WHOLE isn't communist. It dates back to May 4th movement and great thinkers like Lu Hsun....

In the end of the Qing Dynasty, China struggled to accept modernization. Are you going to argue this? Did the 100 days movement not FAIL because of Chinese cultural traits?

Was not China sectarian? Affiliations based upon family name, clan, village, region or province? As opposed to national origin?

PLEASE, if you want to really debate this, I'll be happy to bury you in it

[KC Elbows]

Well, I have nothing personal against you, IKFMDC, but you just sounded like one of those CPC maniacs even right down to the term "Feudalism". I understand where you are coming from but please check your facts what Feudalism really means in ancient China. It's not the same Feudalism that west had. BTW, what political system doesn't fit "include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc..." Like the "democracy" of US of A is holier than any other political system? Please....

Which nation don't have exaggerated sense of importance? It's like saying what holds Pankration back has to do with Greece's exaggerated sense of importance (or lack there of), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc.... So it became a watered down version (ie Collegian wrestling). That kind of argument just doesn't make sense.

It is easy to use label to create a sense of shortcoming of an art or a system. This is exactly what the PRC did. I can't believe you actually bought it from the PRC people who sell you the San Shou thing. Oh well, I guess I gave you too much credit.

In all fairness, the PRC did not invent the argument that traditional chinese culture held back China, it became a very popular view among many different political factions at the end of the Imperial era, so much so that one further attempt to found a new dynasty failed because of the accepted view that imperial China was too old fashioned to function in the new political realities.

Politically, Confucianism DID put a stranglehold on progress, because the Confucians were trying to force everything into the Confucian paradigm without being able to change that paradigm, and so placed arguing the point above solving the problems, all while China was being split up among foreign powers.

And, as was earlier stated, it sounds good to blame communism, until one realizes that most of the longest established kung fu teachers in the states were probably from the GMD controlled parts of China, and were probably as opposed to communism as McCarthy was, possibly more so.

Additionally, at the time these ideas were taking root, Western powers and Japan probably didn't lack an exaggerated sense of importance, but, unlike Imperial China, that sense of importance didn't prevent them from stealing good ideas and technology from each other, whereas those in politics in China of a Confucian persuasion actually did spend a long time preventing China from adopting modern methods solely because they weren't Confucian/Chinese enough, and it was ironically certain local governors/warlords who actually were likely to face modern foreign forces who began to adopt modern weapons, without enough backing from the ministers, who were too busy debating what was Confucian and Chinese enough to be accepted.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Are you high or just wanting to start a side line conversation?

You know for a FACT that the above statement is not true.

Reply] every martial arts school I have ever been in did heavy conditioning, sparing, and fighting. When I was at master Abatte's school in the early 90's, we conditioned almost till we puked, and there was a ring set up right in the back of the classroom.

When I was at Master John Tsai's school, we conditioned like crazy. My abs still hurt to this day, 18 years later from some of the crazy levels of conditioning we used to do. They had guys fighting in the midwest Kick Boxing circuits as well. I wasn't there long, but I remember the guys above me sparring often.

When I was at Iron Fist West, we conditioned like mad, and sparred just about every class.

Looking back on it, I don't see any school I was ever at that didn't have ripped, built instructors teaching, and seriously conditioned students as well.

Hell, even though the techniques were all compliant, even Chung Moo Quan conditioned till we dropped.

Everyone I ever met form Golden Mountain was well conditioned and in phenomenal shape as well.

The guys running Allstar Kung fu on rt 59 are in excellent shape. I don't know about thier fight program, bt when I spoke to them they told me they do san shou, so I'd bet they are the same as any other school I have been in.

Heck, even guys i just worked with on the parks did lots of conditioning and geared up for full resistive sparing and fighting.

So actually looking back on it, I really can't say i have any direct experience with Kung Fu schools that don't train just as hard as MMA schools do.

[SPJ]

3 things;

1. central vs local control. This is a debate or dilema since Qin or the first emperor/dynasty.

a. if China under one rule, there will be no wars among factions/kingdoms. It has been so for hundreds of years during a weak zhou. That included spring autumn and warring states. People sufferred wars upon wars.

at his time, Kong Fu Zi proposed an ideal society that every one takes his place in an ideal society. Father is father, son is son, King is king and minister is minister. meaning minister likes to stay as a minister and not become the next king by assasinating his king.---

KFZ's idea was never accepted or adopted during his life time.

b. more local control meaning a weak central government or ruling court. China is way too big for one person to rule it all. during Qing, the last dynasty, I think that it is Yong Zhen or Kang Xi, he actually read all the reports from over 6000 local officials and keep close contact or approve or discuss proposals. Wow, when do you get to sleep like 3 am in the morning?

--

2. Kong Fu Zi idea is good that people will be content and more "obedient" subjets or shun ming. So any form of government (in China) would like to use it as a political main stream idea. It places trusts in the leader or leading party that, it is the great father that would takes care of everyone.

It was debated, b/c the nationalist party was about to overthrow the Qing's rule.

--

even today, CPC is gladly to resume KFZ idea and embraces it in a big way. They found the grand grand--- child of KFZ and celebrated KFZ's birthday every year. again so that we may have shun ming.

3. Wushu as the ways promoted today by PRC may need many things to improve or to be corrected. But at least, it is funded by the state, talents are sought after and training starting at tender age in wushu academy.

--

Wushu as a cultural thing, physical eduation or even gym events, well it may not go far beyond its border.

--

back to regular programs.

[KC Elbows]

3 things;

1. central vs local control. This is a debate or dilema since Qin or the first emperor/dynasty.

a. if China under one rule, there will be no wars among factions/kingdoms. It has been so for hundreds of years during a weak zhou. That included spring autumn and warring states. People sufferred wars upon wars.

at his time, Kong Fu Zi proposed an ideal society that every one takes his place in an ideal society. Father is father, son is son, King is king and minister is minister. meaning minister likes to stay as a minister and not become the next king by assasinating his king.---

KFZ's idea was never accepted or adopted during his life time.

b. more local control meaning a weak central government or ruling court. China is way too big for one person to rule it all. during Qing, the last dynasty, I think that it is Yong Zhen or Kang Xi, he actually read all the reports from over 6000 local officials and keep close contact or approve or discuss proposals. Wow, when do you get to sleep like 3 am in the morning?

--

2. Kong Fu Zi idea is good that people will be content and more "obedient" subjets or shun ming. So any form of government (in China) would like to use it as a political main stream idea. It places trusts in the leader or leading party that, it is the great father that would takes care of everyone.

It was debated, b/c the nationalist party was about to overthrow the Qing's rule.

--

even today, CPC is gladly to resume KFZ idea and embraces it in a big way. They found the grand grand--- child of KFZ and celebrated KFZ's birthday every year. again so that we may have shun ming.

3. Wushu as the ways promoted today by PRC may need many things to improve or to be corrected. But at least, it is funded by the state, talents are sought after and training starting at tender age in wushu academy.

--

Wushu as a cultural thing, physical eduation or even gym events, well it may not go far beyond its border.

--

back to regular programs.

I believe the universe would fold in upon itself if a day went by in which you failed to provide a list of interesting items related closely and loosely to a topic.

Remember, if one day, you fail, the whole universe dies.

No pressure, though.

[SPJ]

as far as Chinese politics ago.

1. I am not for a strong central rule. I am for more local control.

so I am against one person, one family or one party rule.

2. MA related activity would be from the people for the people or grass root.

I do not believe that a government regulated activity would do much one way or the other way.

in short, the government system and rule has nothing to do with MA activity.

--

the world would still spin no matter what.

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