Pak Hok vs Choy Lee Fut

[TenTigers]

The Bak-Hok they were referring to is Northern Bak-Hok,Tibetan White Crane (Lama P'ai) and Hop-Ga, all of which are considered to be White Crane styles. They are not referring to Fukien Bak Hok P'ai.
I also believe that Northern White Crane, and Lama P'ai also have Needle in Cotton set, so now it becomes curious once again.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Hi Boh-heong Yap, thanks for throwing in some spanners, we are still waiting for the other guy to finish what he started, but I guess he is too busy.

I am a little familiar with NCK and FWC, and they are different birds all together from PHP (Although I have met other PHP stylist who considered elements of NCK and FWC exists at advance levels of PHP -- Using jing from the feet up through the hands into the target, and two handed techniques when at the level of Met. Hands). My PHP teachers did explain to me that PHP evolves and is broader then I can imagine, and few if any learned the whole system, so ... "who am I to say what is and what is not! -- no body"

As 'Lama Pai Sifu' mentioned: Just because styles and technique 'look' similar doesn't mean so; principals, theory, internal Qi work may differ vastly.

There is truth to what you are saying but if one style develops in the same area that an other exists and at basic levels they look like variations of each other, it is reasonable to believe that one got the techniques from the other. Especially, when the history of the younger style is not clearly specified.

Now by shared Ancestry I don't mean they have the same parents, CLF has 3 and PHP has many. But what I am saying is that one (1) of the parents of CLF also new a variation of PHP, which is very reasonable to assume.

To give you some idea of my main systems, I have spent a lot time with PHP, Shaolin Chaun and Wudang Chuan back in the 70'-90's. Today I only teach PHP, but quite often I use something from one of my other systems to help get a point across. My teachers, teachers warned me to stop calling the techniques/forms PHP because they were not, and this is even though I will do the other techniques with a PHP flavor (i.e., principles, strategies, etc.). Now that I have to teach Wushu also, my PHP will more then likely get contaminated by it. This will mean that my students will have a variation of PHP that has Wushu as a parent -- Therefore 10 years from now, the students under my line will have a shared ancestry with the other styles I will have to teach them, I am not saying they are the same styles or systems, just that they have a great, great, grand parent in common. And that does not mean that either got everything that distant parent had to offer, nor does it mean that they maintained that parent's teachings in a pure form. Kungfu/Wushu does tend to evolve.

Hence tracing a lineage through more than a few generations can be difficult, confusing and speculative, especially when a lot of this are not documented. Furthermore, the last 2 centuries was a time of great turmoil in China, with mass movement of people, rebellions, wars, famine, foreign occupation, Cultural Revolution... you get the picture. People get uprooted, families split, documents get destroyed etc... so history gets muddled. Some styles like CLF have documented their lineage well despite all this, but most others have not, hence we fall prey to heresay...

This above is very true but often hearsay, i.e. legends, are all we have. A good example is Karate. I spent several years studying O.GoJuRyu and I was taught one history. In the last 2 decades, the current leaders of the OGF have dug into the legends and known history of OGJR. And they have uncovered that the styles they thought (or taught to me) were the ancestors of OGJR were really not. Based on similarity of technique and location they have trace their roots too ...

BY THE WAY
the other two crane styles are: Shaking and Jumping. There are some who believe that the connect between our systems was the original Flying and Feeding cranes styles. The Shaolin temple - origin of Feeding Crane; Lions Roar - Origin of Flying Crane. However, the southern Chinese had these systems for so long that the styles became more and more like the styles of the best fighters of the day (the other cranes).

And THANKS for posting so much about the principles of the 5 ... it is amazing how much one can forget, and refreshing when one hears them again.

POINTS you might find useful:
--- In the 5 cranes - the 6-inch and no-inch palm comes from a concept called joint expansion.
--- The cotton represents the skin, muscle,... (soft like a cotton/cloud)
--- The needle represents the bone and qi force (hard yet flexible, and invisible - hidden in the cotton).

[boh]

Hi Charles,

Always nice to talk White Crane with someone who knows his subject matter., and even a bit on my favourite styles ;-). I see that you are from Denmark, Copenhagen? If so, our NCK Chee Kim Thong has a school there under someone by the name of Jan (dunno his full name, but I can find out...) I have never met him, but I'm close to our Swedish NCK brothers. He is under Sifu Henry Ho, in Malmo, Sweden and he has another senior instructor Kjell Knutsson also with classes in Malmo.

Now by shared Ancestry I don't mean they have the same parents, CLF has 3 and PHP has many. But what I am saying is that one (1) of the parents of CLF also new a variation of PHP, which is very reasonable to assume.

Point taken, yes having shared ancestry may not mean its the same thing! Aslo as mentioned by Ten Tigers, the context of White Crane in this thread seems to be Northern White Crane

"...Northern Bak-Hok,Tibetan White Crane (Lama P'ai) and Hop-Ga,.."

- and I have to admit I am quite ignorant of, and from what I have seen (from You Tube!) do resemble CLF! BUT (again IMHO) totally different from FWC! Charles, when you say PHP, do you mean the above?

But yes, despite all that from what you & Ten Tigers say, some of the commonality in techniques do indicate either a shared ancestry or a "cross-fertilisation" between styles, that got absorb and adopted!?

Another spanner I'm gonna throw in the works... and although may be classified as heresay (I apologise beforehand, but it makes for interesting discussion...) but comes from a rather authoratative source -

is that WC may not have a clear lineage, nor is it one style, but rather an heterogenous collection of styles! This came about during the tumultous time when WC (along with later Shaolin arts, NCK being one of them...) evolved, the change between Ming & Ching (Manchu) dynasties. A lot of Martial Artist joined the rebellion against the Manchus, and Shao Lin became a focus for the rebels, (which got it destroyed by the Manchus, resulting in the growth of the Southern Saholin temple... buts that's another story...) A lot of the rebel's tyles then may have been 'Family Styles'. If you are a rebel and you got captured, you might be forced to divulge your lineage and hence (Grand) Master, resulting in his arrest and excecution of not only him, but his family, and also grandsons/daughters and their families etc... (yes, those was bad times in China). So they united under a mythical name "White Crane" that did not have a real 'lineage' (Founding Master or family of techers). So this 'umbrella' of the rebel's styles could have resulted in the establishment of White Crane's popularity and spread, and I can be pretty sure there would have been a lot of cross-fertilisation!

Yes, there could have been a real WC style, and there are some that say WC was founded by a lady who observed a Crane fighting.... but not in my history ;-).

My 2-bits worth, and again from the same source, is that WC was derived from Wu Mei (Ng Mui - in Cantonese) a legendary Shao Lin nun. And since I do also practice Wu Mei (under GM Chee Kim Thong's lineage) I do find many similarities, especially with the internal aspects, with WC being a sub-set of WuMei! That's my opinion anyway. So much for heresay, many versions, some more intersting/plausible than others.... pick your favourite!

[CharlesDaCosta]

Hi Boh-heong Yap,
I agree that it is always nice to talk White Crane (and for me martial Arts in general). I live close to the center of Denmark, near a city called Odense, 2 hours from Copenhagen. I am an ex-American. I know Jan and his former teacher but I never met Henry. I think that Jan has a relatively new school and they may lean more towards kickboxing since his son is on the national Kickboxing team.
In Denmark traditional Martial Arts seem to be dieing out and MMA and kickboxing schools are popping up instead.

When I talked to Jan, I didn’t make a connection to White-crane. I guess I still connect them to their old teacher and kickboxing more so.

Now, when ever you see the term “Pak Hok Pai” know that this is Cantonese, so it relates to White Crane out of Canton (Hong Kong). Most schools of Fuzhou/Fukien have a different spelling. The other difference is in the English translation.

One other point, The Northern Crane/Stork style is different too. Some believe this was the Ancestor to what you call Feeding Crane. Its techniques where mainly derived from kicking and the hands with the finger tips together. I think this is one of the “old (-est)” lost or almost lost arts from the Shaolin/Wudang monasteries.

And, yes, commonalities in techniques do indicate either a shared ancestry or “cross-fertilization" between styles. This was my whole point.

You are right about both Southern and Tibetan White-Cranes being heterogeneous collections of styles. In the case of Tibetan WC, it was founded that way. All the different versions of legends I read, have its founder/creator and expert in several other systems of martial arts spanning the silk-route before he created the system. So far, the best I have herd yet has the founder only uncovering a new strategy and the essence of all martial arts. This strategy and the essence could be applied to all arts, thus making it easer for his art (a blending of what he and others already new) to evolve. By evolving and preserving this “True essence” one would have a superior/invincible style.

And, then you have the mess you spoke of, surrounding the Manchus and Shaolin. And also, new boxers popping that want to make their styles famous the easy way (claim it came from the holy mountains or it was ... of a known system).

Now, Cranes were popular in China, and they inspired many DIFFERENT people, thus yielding similar in some respects to totally different styles with the same name. Each of the original 5 cranes has a different creation/inspiration story with a different founder.

So yes, one of the 5 was founded by a lady who observed a Crane fighting (The Feeding Crane). And yes again, “So much for hearsay, many versions, some more interesting/plausible than others.... pick your favorite!” I would add, “pick what inspires you.”

[htowndragon]

could you explain the needles in cotton set?

needles in cotton seems to be purely a tibetan white crane thing, i never heard of FWC having it

[CharlesDaCosta]

Sorry I made a mistake so I deleted it.

[boh]

This is what I know of the NiC, it is suppose to be the highest art form of the White Crane style, taught only to advanced students. Yes it is an important part of FWC, certainly for our school, and a few other FWC schools I know who have te purer traditions. Our Ngor Chor Kun (NCK, 5 Ancestor) also has a NiC form, also at advanced level, pprobably inherited from its WC component. The fact that Lama Pai has this certainly lends credit to the shared-ancestry or corss-fertilization arguments above ;-).

For us, the NiC is practised to develop Qi, and in practice, it is slow, flowing and accompanied by coordinated breathing. This is quite different from our other WC forms, which emphasize rapid, vibrating movements - more representative of training/applying fa-Jing. I see its also done slow in Lama Pai.

As for its theory and meaning, well I'm not expert enough, but it has pretty deep implications. One way to look at it is as a Yin/Yang thing, Yin - being the soft, yielding, cotton-ish component, and the yang being the hard, forceful opposite. One interpretation is of course that presented by Charles in a previous post, but I think it goes far more than that.

Charles,

About Jan, don't know so much about the kick-boxing part, but I do know they have a group that is still hard-core into traditional MA. I don't mean that Jan does white crane, but our NCK has a heavy WC influence, you can see from our forms. Whereas other NCK tend to have more of a TaiZu/LoaHan influence.

WC spelling, well Fujian pronounciation is 'Peh Hok', and the Mandarin is 'BaiHe'. Yes I have heard of the Northern Crane, but have not seen it. Also the way they use the hands, fingers together, other than Feeding Crane, I don't think the other FWC use it, certainly not our school, but I may be mistaken.

[Steeeve]

Dont want to be a trouble maker

But GM Jimmy Woo of kung fu san soo ....or tsoi li ho fut ga hung or whatever ...
just my opinion but does he teach some choy lay fut or white crane ,lama pai ,hop gar whatever the name ... a kind of... put the name you want

without the forms ....the traditionnal forms ....very important to learn the forms
No forms you are not a real one ......

Secret is in the forms ....dont forget ....do you really believe me ......

Steeve

[Steeeve]

ohhhhhhh about the southern crane....goju ryu or uechi ryu(seem more southern mantis) are not bad onn it...

But the feeding crane of taiwan is very cool ....do you know about the flying crane FEI HE ...of Malaysia


Steeve

[CharlesDaCosta]

Steeve, you are a little confusing the way you are writing; however, I think the main points you are trying to make are as follows:

1. There is a connection between southern crane and goju ryu and may be uechi ryu. But Uechi ryu seem more connected to southern mantis.
2. Feeding Crane is in/from Taiwan.
3. Does anyone know about the flying crane (FEI HE) of Malaysia?
4. Does anyone know GM Jimmy Woo, and does he teach kung fu without the forms? The traditional forms are very important because without them you are not a real practitioner. The secrets of kung fu styles are in the forms?

If so, then yes it is true, "the secrets of kung fu styles are in their forms." And, the connections you presented are being considered true.

Is the Malaysian Flying Crane part of Silart (can't spell it) or is it a unique system?


Hi BOH,

... it is suppose to be the highest art form of the White Crane style, taught only to advanced students. Yes it is an important part of FWC, certainly for our school, and a few other FWC schools I know who have the purer traditions.

... For us, the NiC is practised to develop Qi, and in practice, it is slow, flowing and accompanied by coordinated breathing. This is quite different from our other WC forms ...

This holds true for Tibetan White Crane also.

Our Ngor Chor Kun (NCK, 5 Ancestor) also has a NiC form, also at advanced level, pprobably inherited from its WC component. The fact that Lama Pai has this certainly lends credit to the shared-ancestry or corss-fertilization arguments above ;-).

... our other WC forms emphasize rapid, vibrating movements - more representative of training/applying fa-Jing. I see its also done slow in Lama Pai.

As for its theory and meaning, well I'm not expert enough, but it has pretty deep implications. One way to look at it is as a Yin/Yang thing, Yin - being the soft, yielding, cotton-ish component, and the yang being the hard, forceful opposite. One interpretation is of course that presented by Charles in a previous post, but I think it goes far more than that.

One day we are going to have to compare and contrast our styes. And, I am going to have to talk Jan into introducing me to his teacher one day.

But anyway. There is another Crane style called Fighting Crane, sometimes it is considered one of the 5 Cranes of Southern China (including HK and Taiwain).
This could mean that a single style has two names, one is the child of the other, or they are two different syles. This also makes me wounder if the designation of the 5 Cranes was more one system as oppose to it meaning the only/or-main 5 Crane styles in Southern China.

When you look at Hung Gar, it has elements of Feeding Crane. I think because of the C.Revolution and Wushu, the Northern Cane has merged into other styles and has probably died-away as a unique system. This has happened to most Northern systems. And, considering this is where both the military and the Holy Mountains are (the birth places of Chinese Martial arts), you would expect there to be a lot more, and varied, Northern systems then Southern, but the appearance is the opposite.

From what I remember, like most Northern styles, Northern Cane did not try to look like the animal it got its inspiration from. It became just a variation of Long Fists. This would have contributed to its disappearance. I think, Hung Gar is probably the closes the Southern Chinese got to preserving Long Fists. I say this because most of the techniques are there but the strategy is typical Southern Chinese. This has, of course, cause changes to the way you execute the techniques.

Hi htowndragon,
Comming from Houston, you must be from Yang Jwing Ming's (I can't spell) line. If so, you would not have NiC b/c YJM was a specialest in one Crane style, Shakking. NiC would have been introduced to the Cranes schools that had the Flying Crane as a disicipline or substyle, thus Boh school. Boh school combines the 5 Cranes, and this includes Flying Crane.

[htowndragon]

i am hop gar, not from yang jwing mings white crane though i have seen many of his people around here.

[CharlesDaCosta]

i am hop gar, not from yang jwing mings white crane though i have seen many of his people around here.

Sorry about that!

[hungmunhingdai]

Needle in Cotton (NiC) or Meen Loy Jum
This is what I know of the NiC, it is suppose to be the highest art form of the White Crane style, taught only to advanced students. Yes it is an important part of FWC, certainly for our school, and a few other FWC schools I know who have te purer traditions. Our Ngor Chor Kun (NCK, 5 Ancestor) also has a NiC form, also at advanced level, pprobably inherited from its WC component. The fact that Lama Pai has this certainly lends credit to the shared-ancestry or corss-fertilization arguments above ;-).

For us, the NiC is practised to develop Qi, and in practice, it is slow, flowing and accompanied by coordinated breathing. This is quite different from our other WC forms, which emphasize rapid, vibrating movements - more representative of training/applying fa-Jing. I see its also done slow in Lama Pai.

As for its theory and meaning, well I'm not expert enough, but it has pretty deep implications. One way to look at it is as a Yin/Yang thing, Yin - being the soft, yielding, cotton-ish component, and the yang being the hard, forceful opposite. One interpretation is of course that presented by Charles in a previous post, but I think it goes far more than that.

This has to be the biggest bag of bulldust to surface here in recent memory.

[jdhowland]

Quentin Fong taught that Needle in Cotton is for practicing kam na simultaneous evading and seizing/pulse attacking drills.

jd

[CharlesDaCosta]

Quentin Fong taught that Needle in Cotton is for practicing kam na simultaneous evading and seizing/pulse attacking drills.

jd

This can also be practiced while doing NiC. For all you FWC guys, I was taught that NiC represented the actual Crane style in TWC (PHP). In PHP, before NiC, there is just Ape style.