Comparative Success of Kung Fu Schools

[shaolinboxer]

The martial arts that have transformed themselves into successfully sponsored sports continue to dominate the market, and the explosion of MMA leagues hasn't helped any of the traditional arts so far. One reason is that many MMA fighters are now coming directly from college wrestling, with recruiting going on nation wide. Therefore, many high schools now offer a "martial art" by default with their long standing wrestling programs.

The main martial export of China is not wushu, but rather tai chi, which has penetrated the heath sector more that the athletic sector. As a cultural export, tai chi is the most modern and best suited martial for international expansion (at least I think thats what the republic believes).

Most universities offer a number of clubs for FREE offering a range of martial arts at this point (it is much easier to get univerisity approval than ever before).

"Kung fu" at this point is seen in the US mostly as a form of entertainment and as a medium for delivering moral values to the 5-12 year old set. Otherwise is it basically a fringe activity. Why? Because in reality there are no good competitions to enter...no network of sponsors, etc. There is no "mainstream"...you're always the "kung fu guy".

You cannot be in the traditional arts for the money now, because there is none to be had.

So there are basically 2 choices...get a space and share it with other arts, or run a class out of a gym. The third choice, the one I suffer, is to allow your school to be a losing enterprise and just cut checks and stop *****ing. This year I spent about $2K so far.

[SimonM]

There are kwoons prospering out there.

They have generally diversified a bit, offering boxing or jiu jutsu or mma or fencing or SOMETHING that is more mainstream in addition to the Kung Fu classes.

But they exist.

Right Ross?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

3-4 generations is like 100 years - so I guess the majority of KF teachers in the US really suck then.

Reply]
That is what everyone tells me. Which may in part explain why you don't see too many Kung Fu people in top MMA positions.

As for telling people how it SHOULD be done, I am great at that...just no one wants to listen to me. The few who do agree with me are generally MMA types and not Kung Fu people.

There are a number of guys I have come across who still do things the old ways though. The Shui Jiao crowd is a good example for one. Lots of really good old school Kung Fu amongst those guys.

[TenTigers]

The martial arts that have transformed themselves into successfully sponsored sports continue to dominate the market, and the explosion of MMA leagues hasn't helped any of the traditional arts so far. One reason is that many MMA fighters are now coming directly from college wrestling, with recruiting going on nation wide. Therefore, many high schools now offer a "martial art" by default with their long standing wrestling programs.

The main martial export of China is not wushu, but rather tai chi, which has penetrated the heath sector more that the athletic sector. As a cultural export, tai chi is the most modern and best suited martial for international expansion (at least I think thats what the republic believes).

Most universities offer a number of clubs for FREE offering a range of martial arts at this point (it is much easier to get univerisity approval than ever before).

"Kung fu" at this point is seen in the US mostly as a form of entertainment and as a medium for delivering moral values to the 5-12 year old set. Otherwise is it basically a fringe activity. Why? Because in reality there are no good competitions to enter...no network of sponsors, etc. There is no "mainstream"...you're always the "kung fu guy".

You cannot be in the traditional arts for the money now, because there is none to be had.

So there are basically 2 choices...get a space and share it with other arts, or run a class out of a gym. The third choice, the one I suffer, is to allow your school to be a losing enterprise and just cut checks and stop *****ing. This year I spent about $2K so far.

not buying it. Martial Arts was booming when there were no major sports competitions other than tournaments-which were not for everyone. PKA did nothing for Martial Arts, and MMA Sporting events are the same. The people that will go that extra mile and compete in a cage match are not the majority of Martial artists.
Look at boxing gyms. Out of everyone that joins Gleason's Gym, how many are going into the ring? Even Coach Ross said that he has a stable of fighters, and he also has many who come to train work out and practice for their own enjoyment.
That is the way it has always been. There is a core of fighters and everyone else keeps the lights on. In TCMA schools, as much as we try to have everyone well-rounded, there will be those who love to fight, those who love to perform, those who love Lion Dancing, and those who are there for their own reasons.

The reason most (not all) Kung-Fu schools don't make money is that they are always a few steps behind the mainstream. Those people who are in touch with "The Industry," will market their schools, develop programs, have exciting classes, professional staff, excellent phone procedure, walk-in procedure, and interview procedures leading to an enrollment. They have renewal processes, as well as methods to reach out and bring in old students who dropped out. They have a website and a newsletter to keep their students connected to their school. They have events that maintain morale and school pride.

This is what it takes. And....THIS is exactly why McKwoons can teach crap, and still make money. If you do all the other stuff, it really doesn't matter what you teach. You can teach the most traditional Kung-Fu, or you can teach crappola.
It works in reverse, too. If you have the best product, but you can't keep students, or bring in new ones, does it really matter?
nope.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Marketing Matters.

[lkfmdc]

As a general rule, TCMA schools are pathetically backwards. For many, not being commercially successful and not having many students is like a badge of courage....

What is so great about not having a lot of students? Some claim that a lot of studnets "dillutes" the martial art. Maybe you're just a bad teacher and only a select few manage to learn DESPITE how you teach

I have well over 200 students, most are not competitive fighters, a few are downright uncoordinated even, but the vast majority are in better than average shape, can kick and punch with authority, can block the basic strikes in sparring, have basic wrestling skills....

There is no secret, I work very hard, I plan my classes and semesters in ADVANCE.

Making money isn't a sin, and to be honest, most people have no idea how to run a successful school so often it is sour grapes

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What needs to be understood, is that when you open a martial arts school, you are not starting a martial arts school, you are starting a marketing business.

Martial arts classes are just the Widget you are selling.

The "Quality" of your classes is a totally separate thing from the marketing business that sells them. You can have good courses, or bad ones, it does not matter. The success of your school actually depends on your overall marketing abilities.

[mawali]

MMA schools are doing just fine. They train just as hard as traditional Kung Fu schools do, and they are successful both in business and passing thier skills.

There is no reason why a Kung Fu school cannot do the same.

Honestly, I think the problem is more of a marketing issue than anything. The good Kung Fu schools would be HUGE if they were not afraid to aggressively market thier schools.

I agree while saying MMA's mission statement is as what it trains while the same is not true of kungfu schools. from which a few do exceptionally well.
Will a David Carradine kung fu school do well? Yes it will but will it teach kungfu or the TV version of 10-17 years old cult celebrity presence!

Does it mean that celebrity Shaolin monk schools will be standing room only?
If not, why not?

[sha0lin1]

Shaolin1

- That's why use contracts/agreements. While it keeps us financially above board it also teaches students and their parents the meaning of responsiblity and persevence/diligence.



shaolin1

Shaolin Style is probably one of the oldest MMA schools.

You've got it all wrong.

Just like in the past Teachers were sought out for their reputation and skill, not for what style they taught. Actually most times they didn't even have a name for what they taught - this is a very new phenomina.

If you want to be successful then get out there, teach organized/structured classes that excite your students and produce skilled individuals that go on to spread what you've taught them.

So are you in it for the Money or for the pleasure of teaching?

Not quite sure what you mean, what have I got wrong? I am out there teaching, performing, producing skilled individuals. I am in it for both, but more for the love of the art. I would love to quit my day job so I could focus on my matial arts full time. This is what I am working towards.

[fawlung]

Peace&Love,

I have to agree with TenTigers. Kung-Fu schools have the opportunity to be just as successful as any TKD school today is.

In addition to what TenTigers stated, most mainstream martial arts teachers today had systems that were already developed and when they were students they learned these systems from the moment they walked through the door and they were taught the business principles in order to run a successful martial arts business during instructor training sessions and such.

Typically, IMHO, this is not near as common in Kung-Fu schools. The sound business principles and marketing practices are not/were not taught.

With all the martial arts business materials available today, if a Kung-Fu school wants to be successful, or at least give it a shot, there is no reason why they can't be.

[peace&love]

There are kwoons prospering out there.

They have generally diversified a bit, offering boxing or jiu jutsu or mma or fencing or SOMETHING that is more mainstream in addition to the Kung Fu classes.

But they exist.

Right Ross?

The kwoon I now study at is considering adding MMA to increase student enrollment. Honestly, I have not decided my true feeling on this yet.

I spoke with a successful TKD teacher today in the community. He currently has only 7 adults who all attend with their kids during family classes. They do not attend the advanced classes even though a few of them qualify. I thought to myself that how much true training are they truly getting in this environment. He said they made no secret they are just there to support their kids. I think this is great on the family side, but it does not reflect well on actual training in my opinion. His organization has been in business nearly 30 years and they have 7 adult students. Any opinions on this out there? Also, they charge over twice as much tuition as what I am paying now for lessons and they have a belt test every 2 months which is very expensive. This school is much more successful than the kung fu school I attend now, but I just do not agree with the philosophy. He made no secret that it was a business enterprise. We shared some views and he was a bit taken back about how their was a lack of ranking in many kung fu schools and thought that that was why a lot of kids were not getting involved. My thoughts were what does it matter if as adults they are moving on to other things. My view is kung fu is a life long journey. I find this very interesting and sad...and confusing. Why?! Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing others further views and opinions.

[fawlung]

Peace & Love,

Welcome to the .5% of the population that thinks the way you do


IMHO

Adding MMA to a school totally depends on how it's added and how it's marketed. That's a whole different thread though. It might help attract a larger adult base.... maybe.

In all reality, children pay the bills and will account for roughly 80% of a school's income. This is an industry fact. If a school is having trouble keeping children in it's classes (regardless of the martial art they teach) and they want to make good money at teaching martial arts, then they first need to look at everything they're doing to attract, sign up and retain students before they even consider looking at additional programs.

A good martial arts program will have a way to develop, from childhood, a progression of learning that, with any luck, will continue throughout several years... I'd say at least 10 years.

It no longer stops at Black Belt anymore. The curriculum designs today, need to account for goals after a student reaches black belt....

It is sad, but it is how our society works and thinks. Along your line of thinking, the instructor's goal with all students is to help them see that martial arts are a way of life and a life long journey so that they too can gain the benefits that we have seen in the martial arts and hopefully, they will continue upon that path.

[uki]

So, what does everyone else think?

interesting points... with the current MMA bullsh!t mentality prevailing across the airwaves, it makes sense that only egocentric Mcdisiplines are readily available... take a look at china... master-disciple relationship has been reduced to wushu coach and students. traditional martial arts have a root in ethics and moralities... not so anymore; if you don't train to fight like a savage(with rules) in a cage, you suck.

and because this mentality is broadcast, no one desires anything more.

[David Jamieson]

it's not a mentality.

It is a physically demonstrable reality that shows that theoretical boxing is useless when it comes to the visceral act of combat.

It is forcing people to reassess their thinking in regards to what is and what is not valid training methodology for a militaristic art form.

the fact that it is widely broadcast is because it is shown time and again and those people who rage against and stick to their old ways will consistently get their asses handed to them until they change their paradigm and more importantly return their art and it's training methodologies back to the original form and foundation.

If nothing else, the surge of mma is wiping out the charlatans and bullshitters without prejudice and frankly, when it comes to accessing a viable and effective martial art, that is a GOOD thing.

Good riddance to the posers, long live the realists.

That's my view anyway.

[jdhowland]

A lot of good points on this thread. Among them: 1) commercial and non-commercial schools can be successful in different ways, 2) reality checks are good for the health of gung fu traditions.

Here's another take on success. A school is successful if it forms a body of students who maintain themselves as a society long enough to have a profound effect on their lives. My first sifu emphasized that a school, in his opinion, should be not only a training hall, but a family. This says nothing about what is taught but indicates that a school can be a sub-culture tied together by shared experience. Many people stay with a school not because of the marketing or the product, but because they belong there.

Three of my teachers never charged a dime for years of instruction, so it would be hard for me to consider opening a commercial school. I don't object to them; i just have little experience with them. I have no interest in competetive sports and so no need for the larger numbers required for a healthy sporting community. For me, the advantage of not requiring a lot of students to keep the doors open is that i only teach and train with people i like.

Be well.

jd